RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Robertj21a]

And I'm sure it will be people like you moaning those that you have replaced with a machine have now become a burden on the state through being unemployed. I hate self service tills, they are utterly terrible and take twice as long as a human cashier. I will stick with the human rather than the machine thanks.

Do you not use any bank/building society cash machines ?

For supermarkets, I now use the self-service whenever I have just a few items. Many such stores are steadily removing the staffed tills and it will only go further in years to come. For train tickets I haven't used a staffed facility for at least 5 years.

Despite all this, the UK now has some of the lowest unemployment rates in recent times.......

 

[CC 72100]

There was a piece in the London Evening Standard a while back that said anti social behaviour and attacks were at record levels on London Overground.

... which in isolation means nothing, as I'd also hasten to guess that passenger numbers are at record levels?

Without knowing exact figures against customer numbers to create a normalised figure, it doesn't prove anything.

It's also worth saying that DOO train = unsafe feeling for customers and Guard operated-train = safe feeling for customer just on the basis of staffing is not true. I'm not local, but I'd imagine that a fair few people would feel safer on a DOO London Overground service than the version with a Guard 10 years earlier in the days of Silverlink Metro.

Not really too relevant, but important to keep things into perspective when quotes such as 'at record levels' are banded around.

 

[fowler9]

Do you not use any bank/building society cash machines ?

For supermarkets, I now use the self-service whenever I have just a few items. Many such stores are steadily removing the staffed tills and it will only go further in years to come. For train tickets I haven't used a staffed facility for at least 5 years.

Despite all this, the UK now has some of the lowest unemployment rates in recent times.......

Zero hour contracts and people being sent on various DWP schemes, people on fixed term, temp or low hours contracts etc. etc. being removed from the figures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What does "ToD on the TVMs" mean? Genuine question.

ToD = Ticket on Departure, i.e. collection of pre-booked tickets. Merseyrail won't pay to network theirs so you can't buy online and collect at one of their stations (other than South Parkway as others have said as that has a Northern machine).

TVM = Ticket Vending Machine.

Sorry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good job lots people aren't like you otherwise or economy would be utterly screwed. Some of us still like to be served by people and not a machine.

Is the German economy screwed? Their S-Bahnen, which Merseyrail is a textbook example of, are DOO, have been for years, and do not generally have ticket offices other than a small number that typically open *once a month* to issue season tickets. Some stations have platform staff but most don't. They even have completely unstaffed underground stations which isn't legal in the UK. Imagine Liverpool Central with no staff whatsoever.

 

[JamesTT]

How safe do people feel on a train with a guard that doesn't announce they are on the service let alone bother to walk through?

 

[185]

On the BBC North-West mid-day news, an RMT spokesman mentioned that muggers on trains were something to worry about if there were no guards on Merseyrail services. Can I ask any guard on this thread what is the advice they have to follow if they come across a case of mugging on their train?

Never any procedure, just act as a competent person with the bounds of your job. I am aware of a commendation for stopping a rape in 2003 involved interrupting the incident, moving the 14-year old victim to safety of the back cab, potentially a little breach of the power door procedure at the next stop (releasing the doors for a fraction of a second, then quickly locking them) - buzz buzz, setting off to the next stop where BTP were waiting, and handing him over.

Plus, bringing in £33000 in ticket sales is generally far beyond the initial cost of a guards salary. Ordinary money aside, IMO, this whole dispute is solely related to PPM - performance payments, where guards are considered more likely to cause service delays by noticing incidents - that's where the big money changes hands between Gov't and the Tocs.

 

[the sniper]

They even have completely unstaffed underground stations which isn't legal in the UK. Imagine Liverpool Central with no staff whatsoever.

Give it time... No doubt one day you won't have to imagine.

 

[DMU180]

Merseytravel have been investigating the purpose of guards on Merseyrail for years now. They never leave the cab so they render themselves pointless. The RMT was informed of Merseytravels investigation yet didn't pass this onto their guards. It is their own fault that they are losing the role of guard as they couldn't be bothered leaving the cab. Why would Merseytravel fund a grade which is only doing a small part of their actual jobs. Unfortunately no sympathy for guards on Merseyrail from me as they have done themselves any favours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Give it time... No doubt one day you won't have to imagine.

Even in the context that they've added platform staff that they didn't used to have when I was a kid? At quiet times, particularly late evenings, the platforms at city centre stations feel desolate and a little scary, particularly the Wirral Line ones at the end of long tunnels. Having someone down there in uniform is likely to be far more useful and far more reassuring than them sitting in the ticket office up top.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plus, bringing in £33000 in ticket sales

Merseyrail guards do not do revenue.

 

[455driver]

Has anyone mentioned the Liverpool taxi drivers throwing their teddies out of the pram on Grand National day as well-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/taxi-drivers-planning-road-blockades-12680918

 

[6Gman]

Not necessary for just basic, routine, transactions - ATMs, supermarket tills, train tickets........

I have never, ever, ever been able to buy my train ticket from an ATM.

They don't sell what I need.

 

[6Gman]

Merseytravel have been investigating the purpose of guards on Merseyrail for years now. They never leave the cab so they render themselves pointless. The RMT was informed of Merseytravels investigation yet didn't pass this onto their guards. It is their own fault that they are losing the role of guard as they couldn't be bothered leaving the cab. Why would Merseytravel fund a grade which is only doing a small part of their actual jobs. Unfortunately no sympathy for guards on Merseyrail from me as they have done themselves any favours.

But they do leave their cabs!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Has anyone mentioned the Liverpool taxi drivers throwing their teddies out of the pram on Grand National day as well-

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/taxi-drivers-planning-road-blockades-12680918

I hope the Police go round and ticket the lot of them for causing an obstruction. Do they not love their city and want to see it give a good impression to outside visitors?

The DBS check thing is getting stricter in all areas - the Scout Association now operate a strict system of suspension for people whose checks expire, and like the private hire drivers there is plenty of notice. No great surprise that a similar system would be applied to private hire drivers.

I think this is all pretty low, to be honest. It'll get plenty of publicity all right - negative publicity for the city. Quite the opposite of the way everyone (apart from the Adelphi Hotel[1]) mucked in when a load of people got stranded when the Races were disrupted by the IRA about 20 years ago. (I was going through the Old Roan northbound on the Northern Line as the evacuation was going on - the queue was down the road, and they were cramming people on and telling them they could go anywhere in the country they liked for free, and come back for their cars the next day. Helped a few out with which way to go to various places).

Just have the strikes etc the following week and hit the shopping traffic if you must, but don't make my former home city look stupid on the world stage.

[1] Who were auctioning rooms to the highest bidder, it was shown on the BBC TV show about them, while people were putting people up on their floors, in community centres etc for free. Shoddy. Would never stay there as long as the staff doing that still worked there.

 

[DMU180]

But they do leave their cabs!

Do you use Merseyrail services? I travel on them every day at varying times throughout and I have gone weeks without seeing them in the train.

 

[DMU180]

Merseyrail guards do not do revenue.

They are supposed to check tickets outside peak times but do not sell them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are supposed to check tickets outside peak times but do not sell them.

So if they find someone without what do they do? Suggest they should probably pay at the other end? (A long-running Merseyrail euphemism for not paying, or only paying if challenged...)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As long as it doesn't occur in your road eh Paul :roll:

My "road" as you call it, is naught but a picturesque country lane, wide enough for a tractor or a Range Rover.

The only problems we normally encounter is itinerant wildlife such as badgers who insist on trespassing onto my land and gouging scrapes in the areas laid to lawn or evil-minded moles who take a delight in "building soil castles" on the said lawned areas..

 

[the sniper]

Ordinary money aside, IMO, this whole dispute is solely related to PPM - performance payments, where guards are considered more likely to cause service delays by noticing incidents - that's where the big money changes hands between Gov't and the Tocs.

Absolutely. Anyone who knows how at least some TOCs treat Guards who delay trains due to dealing with hardened problem fare dodgers, disruptive passengers or other incidents knows that one of the greatest benefits of DOO is that you remove the 'problem' that delays the train, the Guard who sees what's going on. What the railway doesn't see can't hurt it, create it any delay minutes or hurt its PPM... Thus saving considerable amounts of money. "Improving the passenger experience", yeah right... People are always calling out lazy Guards for not doing tickets or walking through the train, but many of these are products of the system. In my experience those Guards are the ones who get left alone by management, while the most proactive Guards I know that would be lauded by members of this forum are also the ones I absolutely know are considered liabilities by management.

Even in the context that they've added platform staff that they didn't used to have when I was a kid? At quiet times, particularly late evenings, the platforms at city centre stations feel desolate and a little scary, particularly the Wirral Line ones at the end of long tunnels. Having someone down there in uniform is likely to be far more useful and far more reassuring than them sitting in the ticket office up top.

Why would platform staff be secure? What makes you think there'll be anyone sitting in a ticket office window 'up top' in the future either? We're forever being told on here that 'nobody has a job for life' and everyone is disposable, even the drivers eventually. As you say, S-Bahn manages without front line staff, why shouldn't people here expect or be entitled to anything other than a purely DOO railway?

 

[JamesTT]

Merseytravel have been investigating the purpose of guards on Merseyrail for years now. They never leave the cab so they render themselves pointless. The RMT was informed of Merseytravels investigation yet didn't pass this onto their guards. It is their own fault that they are losing the role of guard as they couldn't be bothered leaving the cab. Why would Merseytravel fund a grade which is only doing a small part of their actual jobs. Unfortunately no sympathy for guards on Merseyrail from me as they have done themselves any favours.

So the McNulty report said guards or the equivalent are not worth the money (please don't compare them to hospital cleaners etc) Instead of encouraging guards to maximise revenue (if they sold tickets), to boost the bottom line value of the guard roll. There was basically a campaign which said if guards want to do jack then that is their choice DONT YOU DARE QUESTION THEM.

Yes a guard will be a great help in an incident. But how many incidents that require a guard happen? Not many I expect. So why are guards not encouraged to do their best to check tickets, sell extensions etc to highlight the monetary value of the role

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would platform staff be secure?

For the time being, because they were a recent introduction to avoid safety issues caused by the severe overcrowding the station experiences.

That said, Germany used to have a lot more of them, generally in little glass huts elevated above the platform so as to get a good view. Back then a CD/RA style system was used for dispatch, now it's screens in the cab and pure DOO mostly.

 

[Robertj21a]

Zero hour contracts and people being sent on various DWP schemes, people on fixed term, temp or low hours contracts etc. etc. being removed from the figures.

They are not '......being removed from the figures' (as in fiddling the stats) if they are in some/any form of employment.

If they are employed then they can hardly be in the unemployment statistics !

 

[M28361M]

Do you use Merseyrail services? I travel on them every day at varying times throughout and I have gone weeks without seeing them in the train.

Luck of the draw maybe, but I use Merseyrail services six days a week and see the guard walk through the train quite often, although they always return to the rear cab for the underground sections.

 

[Clip]

Absolutely. Anyone who knows how at least some TOCs treat Guards who delay trains due to dealing with hardened problem fare dodgers, disruptive passengers or other incidents knows that one of the greatest benefits of DOO is that you remove the 'problem' that delays the train, the Guard who sees what's going on. What the railway doesn't see can't hurt it, create it any delay minutes or hurt its PPM... Thus saving considerable amounts of money.

So when our glorious railway was nationalised and called British Rail and they implemented DOO over large swathes of the south - what did they have to consider seeing that PPM wasnt a thing and delay minutes wasnt a thing and considerable amounts of money wasnt going to be saved by these two things that were not even invented then?

 

[danbarnstall]

Luck of the draw maybe, but I use Merseyrail services six days a week and see the guard walk through the train quite often, although they always return to the rear cab for the underground sections.

I use both Northern and Wirral lines to get to work. I travel from Crosby to Birkenhead, always see Northern Guards but never Wirral line. This makes sense now why that is, thank you.

 

[Carlisle]

Absolutely. Anyone who knows how at least some TOCs treat Guards who delay trains due to dealing with hardened problem fare dodgers, disruptive passengers or other incidents knows that one of the greatest benefits of DOO is that you remove the 'problem' that delays the train, the Guard who sees what's going on. What the railway doesn't see can't hurt it, create it any delay minutes or hurt its PPM... Thus saving considerable amounts of money. "Improving the passenger experience", yeah right... People are always calling out lazy Guards for not doing tickets or walking through the train, but many of these are products of the system. In my experience those Guards are the ones who get left alone by management, while the most proactive Guards I know that would be lauded by members of this forum are also the ones I absolutely know are considered liabilities by management.

Most DOO in the U.K. Ireland, France,Germany etc was introduced on railways that were or still are state monopolies,so factoring in costs like delay minutes /PPM payments etc in any business plan will have had very little influence on the final decision I'd have thought.

 

[185]

Do you use Merseyrail services? I travel on them every day at varying times throughout and I have gone weeks without seeing them in the train.

About 8/10 times on my experience of Merseyrail, a guard does wander through and do the doors at varying panels. Obv never in the tunnels, or really late at night - when I don't blame them whilst working alone, this ain't no leafy branch line.

It may vary line by line, and working a late evening Kirby is a little different than an afternoon trip to sunny West Kirby with yer flip flops.

 

[jamesst]

About 8/10 times on my experience of Merseyrail, a guard does wander through and do the doors at varying panels. Obv never in the tunnels, or really late at night - when I don't blame them whilst working alone, this ain't no leafy branch line.

It may vary line by line, and working a late evening Kirby is a little different than an afternoon trip to sunny West Kirby with yer flip flops.

Haha believe me,trips to west Kirby when it's hot and sunny are no picnic either!!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ive been to Aintree almost every year for the Grand National & have only once known there to be Industrial Action on MerseyRail. It spoilt the day as the majority of punters arrive by train as it is so convenient & moves tens of thousands to the race so effitiently. Add the Northern dispute & it makes for a miserable day this year. Thankfully we gave it a miss this year as would've purchased tickets & booked hotels last Summer to get the best deals.

Virgin, LM, TPE and EMT will be running so it won't be completely hopeless getting to Liverpool on the Saturday, from the south particularly.
The final few miles might be tricky though.
Taxis will do well.