RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[TEW]

There are level crossings on the DOO Newcastle Metro too, as well as scores in DOO Southern territory. Newcastle Metro, very similar to the Liverpool network has been DOO since 1976. And it has been brilliantly safe.

The same Newcastle Metro that seemed to have a rather alarming number of 'Trap and Drag' PTI incidents? Brilliantly safe indeed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same Newcastle Metro that seemed to have a rather alarming number of 'Trap and Drag' PTI incidents? Brilliantly safe indeed.

Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with level crossings, nor to do with a modern system of CCTV-based DOO.

 

[TEW]

Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with level crossings, nor to do with a modern system of CCTV-based DOO.

Please tell me exactly where in my post I said it was. I was simply refuting the incorrect claim that the Tyne & Wear Metro is brilliantly safe.

 

[InOban]

Having recently come across and joined this forum, perhaps I can make the following observations.

1. Any organisation, whether in the public or private sector, exists to produce a product or provide a service, at a price and to a quality that other people are prepared to pay for. The organisation does not exist to employ people.
2. Since the major funder of suburban rail services tends to be the Community rather than the fare payer (quite rightly), the public purse decides the price and quality. The railway is not and never could be a worker's co-op.
3. The fundamentals of the job description of guards, and many other railway staff, date back around 100 years, to the days of thousands of mechanical signalboxes, carriages without through connections etc. It is inconceivable that much of this is appropriate in 2017.
4. If the passengers were asked to draw up a job description for the passenger-facing staff they rightly want, it would, I believe, bear little relation to the Traditional Role of the Guard, and much more to what Merseyrail want them to do.
5. Given that the network is almost entirely self-contained, I am surprised that the new trains have driver's, this being the most easily automated job in the system, as has been demonstrated all over the world, including in the UK.

 

[gray1404]

My experience when I was a kid was of no service in the event of strikes.

Though I don't think Merseyrail should be immune to criticism. In my view they would have been better operating to all stations but at a lower frequency i.e. hourly.

I recall that too actually: strike = no service

I think though in 2017 UK an hourly service in areas as populated as those Merseyrail serves would just not be enough. Half hourly on all lines as a minimum. Although I do see your argument to provide an hourly service on all lines and at all stations so then no one station is left out.

 

[Goldfish62]

I dont quite get that.....seems to me that the more passengers that rail attracts, the more jobs are created in the industry. Certainly right now at my TOC they are taking on some significant numbers of new guys despite the issue around future guards.

Except that growth is slowing and has indeed flatlined in the SE. Increased industrial action across the country will probably help growth go into reverse. That'll probably suit the government very nicely as it would give them a convenient excuse to stop investing in the railways.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There are level crossings on the DOO Newcastle Metro too

And every single one of them on Metro metal has a 15km/h speed limit.

And even then, look what happened when a bus ran the red light. In particular, look at the Metro cab. The driver was trapped in his cab.

Photo from Flickr "salopbus"

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_BruntonLane1983.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

For all I support DOO on Merseyrail, this is utter garbage, other than that the strike is unnecessary because no staff are going to lose their jobs nor see a pay cut (though they may see a role change, but that's life), and DOO, with platform staff at busy stations like Liverpool Central dispatching using either CD/RA or a Tube style bat, is the correct, safe way to operate a modern non-automated metro system.

Absolute and totally disagree with you and so do most passengers being interviewed today at stations !

When the new Northern franchise started and some passengers were interviewed about guards on trains, many were under the impression that some trains were already running as driver only. Passengers want a visible staff presence and the RMT have wrongly led people to believe that no guard automatically means the driver will be the only member of staff on board.

Although, I accept on Merseyrail it's rare the guard doesn't provide a visible staff presence, unlike on a number of other operators. Even one Northern guard who posts on here that he always walks through the train even if he doesn't have a working ticket machine admitted it could be 20 minutes between his walks through the train on sections where stations are close together, meaning a passenger making a 15 minute journey may not see a member of staff walk through even if they board his service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that's true (that guards walk through more often than not) that's a big shift - on Merseyrail in my childhood the guard never left the rear cab other than to change ends.

FWIW, LM presently looks like that. Many people think it is already DOO as a result, and there's unlikely to be significant resistance from passengers to a change there (though one is not presently proposed, and the 350s are not set up for it so it would require significant financial investment so seems unlikely absent a complete rolling stock replacement programme which itself seems unlikely given the age and condition of the 350s).

 

[northwichcat]

If that's true (that guards walk through more often than not) that's a big shift - on Merseyrail in my childhood the guard never left the rear cab other than to change ends.

It seems the current policy is after dispatching the train they move up to the next set of doors and carry on until they reach the front and then start making their way to the back again. Not sure how it works on 6 car sets though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2. Since the major funder of suburban rail services tends to be the Community rather than the fare payer (quite rightly), the public purse decides the price and quality. The railway is not and never could be a worker's co-op.

I see no particular reason in principle (other than the financial requirements to qualify) that a worker's co-op could not bid for a franchise, nor why they couldn't set up an open access operation (indeed Go-Op are attempting this). However, they should not specify a subsidised service other than placing a bid for one which may or may not be accepted.

4. If the passengers were asked to draw up a job description for the passenger-facing staff they rightly want, it would, I believe, bear little relation to the Traditional Role of the Guard, and much more to what Merseyrail want them to do.

I'd agree. On Merseyrail that would mean a variety - platform staff, tourist information/assistance staff possibly part-time/zero hours for big events, security guards/Byelaw officers (Merseyrail is quite good at this in that security staff are quite professional and directly employed - this may follow Dutch lines where they are much less "rent-a-thug" than is often the case here).

On an InterCity TOC I can see this being much more like an air steward/ess with mixed responsibilities. Is there any particular reason, if the driver does the doors, that the buffet steward could not be trained to have a safety role in the event of emergency? It's exactly how it works on aircraft.

5. Given that the network is almost entirely self-contained, I am surprised that the new trains have driver's, this being the most easily automated job in the system, as has been demonstrated all over the world, including in the UK.

Automation is an interesting option, but because Merseyrail has things like level crossings I don't think it's quite ready for it yet. Give it 20 years though. I suspect the FLIRTs will be the last rolling stock ordered for Merseyrail that have driver's cabs.

Once that happens I'd expect the return of the "guard", like DLR. I don't think British culture is to be well-behaved enough for completely unstaffed operation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well, the "first shot" from the RMT "has been fired" and I wonder how much of a response from Merseyrail will be now be forthcoming in response to that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, the "first shot" from the RMT "has been fired" and I wonder how much of a response from Merseyrail will be now be forthcoming in response to that.

As I said I hope they stand firm. The guards are being downright unreasonable in this specific case in my view. The RMT should ensure there will be no compulsory redundancies and leave it at that, and get on with the rather more complex issue of Northern.

 

[Jonfun]

On an InterCity TOC I can see this being much more like an air steward/ess with mixed responsibilities. Is there any particular reason, if the driver does the doors, that the buffet steward could not be trained to have a safety role in the event of emergency? It's exactly how it works on aircraft.

The problem of course there is that again there is no requirement for catering staff - or for that matter, revenue staff, OBSes or cleaners - to be on board for the train to run. It's all well and good having them trained up but that's no use to anyone if the train crashes whilst they're sat in the messroom having missed it because their first working of the day was delayed.
Training for all staff does need to be better - a standardised industry syllabus for all traincrew could well have merit, covering things like GSM-R Red Button, fire safety, proper communication, train evacuation, first aid and other things relevant to the role. But given the cost, and bearing in mind the aim of the DOO rollout is to reduce staff numbers and deskill those who remain, we will not see any logical thinking like that.

 

[Moonshot]

The problem of course there is that again there is no requirement for catering staff - or for that matter, revenue staff, OBSes or cleaners - to be on board for the train to run. It's all well and good having them trained up but that's no use to anyone if the train crashes whilst they're sat in the messroom having missed it because their first working of the day was delayed.
Training for all staff does need to be better - a standardised industry syllabus for all traincrew could well have merit, covering things like GSM-R Red Button, fire safety, proper communication, train evacuation, first aid and other things relevant to the role. But given the cost, and bearing in mind the aim of the DOO rollout is to reduce staff numbers and deskill those who remain, we will not see any logical thinking like that.

There is a lot of merit in that. I have no doubt that some of the safety critical stuff we do has a limited shelf life in the future, emergency protection with detonators being one.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Being the utopian left-winger that I am, how about putting human-beings first and give job conservation priority. We could start by re-nationalising the network- for which there is a clear majority in the country.

 

[AlterEgo]

Being the utopian left-winger that I am, how about putting human-beings first and give job conservation priority.

Because companies exist to serve a consumer need, not to provide employment for the sake of employment.

 

[HH]

Because companies exist to serve a consumer need, not to provide employment for the sake of employment.

Unless you live in Scotland.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Because companies exist to serve a consumer need, not to provide employment for the sake of employment.

Sorry, but the railways are a public service, they should never have been privatised in the pathetic manner that thdey were !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being the utopian left-winger that I am, how about putting human-beings first and give job conservation priority.

That isn't really something for the railway to sort out, though, it's more of a national political thing. And if we do want to create jobs for the sake of creating them (which does have arguments in its favour rather than paying people unemployment benefits for *not* working), I think there are jobs that would be more useful to create than guards on an urban train service.

Arguably, Merseyrail is already doing a bit of a job-creation scheme anyway in having all its stations except 4 fully staffed in the ticket office for the full period of service, where similar services elsewhere would just have TVMs.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry, but the railways are a public service, they should never have been privatised in the pathetic manner that thdey were !

The job of the state isn't to provide employment for the sake of employment either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, but the railways are a public service, they should never have been privatised in the pathetic manner that thdey were !

They are a public service, but a public service is not a job-creation exercise, it's a provision of service to the public.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

Unless you live in Scotland.

I must say that my experience of railway staff in Scotland is very positive. Arriving late in Thurso on one ocassion I was very kindly offered a lift to my B & B by one of the train crew !

 

[Bletchleyite]

The job of the state isn't to provide employment for the sake of employment either.

And even if we consider that it is (as an alternative, say, to UBI), there are far more useful jobs that could be created.

Here's one - reinstating public lavatories with attendants would be of more benefit to society generally than a guard on a metro-style train service. Might not be a fun job, but it's a job.

Or staffing up the front-line NHS a bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless you live in Scotland.

The railway is not a job-creation exercise even in Scotland.

 

[HH]

I must say that my experience of railway staff in Scotland is very positive. Arriving late in Thurso on one ocassion I was very kindly offered a lift to my B & B by one of the train crew !

I'm sure you'd find similar attitudes in most of the more remote places.

 

[mtbox]

Being the utopian left-winger that I am, how about putting human-beings first and give job conservation priority. We could start by re-nationalising the network- for which there is a clear majority in the country.

I hope you have your flak jacket and tin hat handy, there aren't many who aren't rabid right wing selfish tools on here

 

[HH]

The railway is not a job-creation exercise even in Scotland.

There are a lot more staff in Scotland, on any reasonable metric (e.g. passenger miles), than there in any other TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are a lot more staff in Scotland, on any reasonable metric (e.g. passenger miles), than there in any other TOC.

There are a certain number of staff you need at minimum to run a railway, even a quiet one.

 

[Pyreneenguy]

I hope you have your flak jacket and tin hat handy, there aren't many who aren't rabid right wing selfish tools on here

Well thank-you for confirming what I've always thought