RMT dispute on Merseyrail

[Moonshot]

Said future role could of course be a guard on something like InterCity West Coast. It is highly unlikely that trains would be driver-only operated on that route. The driver may end up doing the doors, but that isn't the only consideration.

Indeed...and there already is a steady flow to Virgin from my own TOC.

 

[Chester1]

Ah right.....so overall then as the industry grows, numbers of employees will increase anyway despite the fact that some jobs will look different than they do today? I myself would certainly apply for a 3 years fixed term guards role if I wasnt already inside ...I would look at it as giving me plenty of time to adapt for a future role.

The spread of DOO will mean that the ratio of staff to passengers will drop but with 4-4.5% annual passenger mile growth and natural wastage as people retire means that for most TOCs there is no need for compulsory redundancies. Merseyrail apparently has a higher than average age profile so there will be a high rate of retirements. The fixed term staff will nearly all be let go by 2021 but I agree about VTWC comments, they know what they are signing upto and they will be in a great position to get jobs for other TOCs, they will be vastly better candidates than people with no experience in a safety critical role. I am concerned about Northern DOO, but I hope the unions get crushed in this fight, its the safest place on the Network Rail system to introduce DOO and the likihood that compuslory redundancies will occur is very low.

 

[trainophile]

Well I travelled on the 1030 from Southport to Formby today, and the 1608 (actually arrived 1611/1612) back, and the trains were pretty empty, especially outward - only me and three others in an entire coach. Lots of school kids on the way back, but still plenty of seats for all.

No picket lines, stations seemed business as usual. People must have decided to stay local today, as I didn't think the roads were noticeably busier either.

It makes me wonder whether these strikes are literally more trouble than they are worth, when you take into account all the pre-publicity and timetable shuffling. I don't want to see guards go, but if today was anything to go by the industrial action didn't seem to have much impact.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apparently from the other thread the RMT say they won't talk until guarantees of a second safety critical member of staff are made.

I can see that that is not much of a jump for Northern as they are expecting two staff on most trains anyway. But for Merseyrail I think the TOC/Merseytravel need to hold firm for as long as it takes. It is simply not the same argument as for any other TOC (other than something like LO). A modern metro system does not need guards. They are a waste of money in that specific context. It needs targetted additional staffing - platform staff, teams of security guards on late evening services, RPIs/TTIs and so on. And more drivers and more stock to allow service frequency increases to a 10 minute base in the long term.

I would like to see the staffing numbers remain the same, but those staff to be more targetted.

 

[northwichcat]

Apparently from the other thread the RMT say they won't talk until guarantees of a second safety critical member of staff are made.

I can see that that is not much of a jump for Northern as they are expecting two staff on most trains anyway. But for Merseyrail I think the TOC/Merseytravel need to hold firm for as long as it takes. It is simply not the same argument as for any other TOC (other than something like LO). A modern metro system does not need guards. They are a waste of money in that specific context. It needs targetted additional staffing - platform staff, teams of security guards on late evening services, RPIs/TTIs and so on. And more drivers and more stock to allow service frequency increases to a 10 minute base in the long term.

I would like to see the staffing numbers remain the same, but those staff to be more targetted.

In the interview he was told that the PM had called the strike unnecessary and called for the union to get around the table with the operator. The rep went off on one about the Tories and the PM not knowing what it is like in the North or caring about worker's rights and then changed the subject to the Dutch owned Merseyrail wanting to trial DOO in Merseyside before doing it in their homeland. If he doesn't understand it's Labour controlled Merseytravel who have imposed DOO on an Anglo Dutch concession there won't be a resolution anytime soon.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the interview he was told that the PM had called the strike unnecessary and called for the union to get around the table with the operator. The rep went off on one about the Tories and the PM not knowing what it is like in the North or caring about worker's rights and then changed the subject to the Dutch owned Merseyrail wanting to trial DOO in Merseyside before doing it in their homeland. If he doesn't understand it's Labour controlled Merseytravel who have imposed DOO on an Anglo Dutch concession there won't be a resolution anytime soon.

For all I support DOO on Merseyrail, this is utter garbage, other than that the strike is unnecessary because no staff are going to lose their jobs nor see a pay cut (though they may see a role change, but that's life), and DOO, with platform staff at busy stations like Liverpool Central dispatching using either CD/RA or a Tube style bat, is the correct, safe way to operate a modern non-automated metro system.

 

[northwichcat]

(though they may see a role change, but that's life)

Surely some guards will become trainee drivers, which will be an excellent advancement for those guards.

 

[Onedirection]

Apparently from the other thread the RMT say they won't talk until guarantees of a second safety critical member of staff are made.

I can see that that is not much of a jump for Northern as they are expecting two staff on most trains anyway. But for Merseyrail I think the TOC/Merseytravel need to hold firm for as long as it takes. It is simply not the same argument as for any other TOC (other than something like LO). A modern metro system does not need guards. They are a waste of money in that specific context. It needs targetted additional staffing - platform staff, teams of security guards on late evening services, RPIs/TTIs and so on. And more drivers and more stock to allow service frequency increases to a 10 minute base in the long term.

I would like to see the staffing numbers remain the same, but those staff to be more targetted.

Absolute and totally disagree with you and so do most passengers being interviewed today at stations !

 

[trainophile]

Given the assortment of clientele on Merseyrail, would the new non-guard staff member be able to intervene if trouble kicks off? It's not unknown .

 

[455driver]

I can understand the drivers supporting the strike, but it's a bit petty to cut out certain stations on routes they are driving anyway isn't it?

Seriously?

The drivers will be stopping at all the stations on the schedule card, they cannot decide where they want to stop, although it would be nice if we could!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the assortment of clientele on Merseyrail, would the new non-guard staff member be able to intervene if trouble kicks off? It's not unknown .

A team of rentathugs would be far better placed to do that than one guard.

 

[Nean]

A team of rentathugs would be far better placed to do that than one guard.

Something something bylaw enforcement officers (I jest of course )

 

[6Gman]

For all I support DOO on Merseyrail, this is utter garbage, other than that the strike is unnecessary because no staff are going to lose their jobs nor see a pay cut (though they may see a role change, but that's life), and DOO, with platform staff at busy stations like Liverpool Central dispatching using either CD/RA or a Tube style bat, is the correct, safe way to operate a modern non-automated metro system.

In your opinion.

Others may disagree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Something something bylaw enforcement officers (I jest of course )

To be fair, they would be even better as they are proper railway staff. But not a single guard.

 

[6Gman]

May I point out there are 14 level crossings between Waterloo and Southport.

Metro?

 

[Bletchleyite]

S-Bahn, if you prefer.

 

[AlterEgo]

May I point out there are 14 level crossings between Waterloo and Southport.

Metro?

Why would level crossings mandate the use of a guard?

 

[gray1404]

It will be interesting to see when the date of the next strike is. Have not heard when this might be yet...

(and I am sure the drivers will also strike too at a later date.)

 

[trainophile]

Is there any tangible way they can evaluate the effectiveness of striking?

 

[XDM]

May I point out there are 14 level crossings between Waterloo and Southport.

Metro?

There are level crossings on the DOO Newcastle Metro too, as well as scores in DOO Southern territory. Newcastle Metro, very similar to the Liverpool network has been DOO since 1976. And it has been brilliantly safe.

 

[gray1404]

Today was a total disaster on Merseyrail. I was travelling back from the South Coast and just missed (by about 2 minutes) a Southport service from Liverpool Central. I went for the bus instead and caught a late running X2. It was busy but I was travelling at 4.30pm. The 47/X2 buses passing my apartment this evening though are really quiet indeed.

They really should have arrange rail replacement buses to cover the times that they, in advance (i.e. their pre planned timetable), didn't expect to run a service (i.e. after about 6.30pm). I can only assume they had a place a 3 hour gap in service to act as a PNB for the drivers that did show in/driver team managers. There was no mention of ticket acceptance on other TOCs. E.g. Liverpool to Chester via Crewe. And no alternative put in place to get passengers to and from places like Ormskirk and Chester.

In future though, I think Merseyrail should arrange for Rail Replacement Buses on all routes on strike days. Even if these only covered the times that the trains were not running and I think they should also plan future strike timetables based on the staff numbers they had in today.

 

[Robertj21a]

Today was a total disaster on Merseyrail. I was travelling back from the South Coast and just missed (by about 2 minutes) a Southport service from Liverpool Central. I went for the bus instead and caught a late running X2. It was busy but I was travelling at 4.30pm. The 47/X2 buses passing my apartment this evening though are really quiet indeed.

They really should have arrange rail replacement buses to cover the times that they, in advance (i.e. their pre planned timetable), didn't expect to run a service (i.e. after about 6.30pm). I can only assume they had a place a 3 hour gap in service to act as a PNB for the drivers that did show in/driver team managers. There was no mention of ticket acceptance on other TOCs. E.g. Liverpool to Chester via Crewe. And no alternative put in place to get passengers to and from places like Ormskirk and Chester.

In future though, I think Merseyrail should arrange for Rail Replacement Buses on all routes on strike days. Even if these only covered the times that the trains were not running and I think they should also plan future strike timetables based on the staff numbers they had in today.

Are you just assuming that there are spare buses and drivers readily available for whenever the railway companies might need them ?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A team of rentathugs would be far better placed to do that than one guard.

....like they have on the Southminster branch - yet they were still unable to prevent local oiks from boarding at South Woodham with a motorbike

 

[gray1404]

Are you just assuming that there are spare buses and drivers readily available for whenever the railway companies might need them ?

Re-read my post again. I am talking about the advance planning for strike days. i.e. Merseyrail original intent was to run a service until about 6.30/7pm. I am saying they could have planned buses/coaches after this time.

Now given their experience of the first strike today, they should use this to make more comprehensive plans for next time. i.e. the use of buses/coaches for the times of day when they are unable to run train services and also ensure that places on their network are not left without a service.

Again, I have not once suggested that they would be buses and drivers sat around. I am talking about a lack of advance planning.

It is also worth noting that it was arguably foreseeable (and Merseyrail even mentioned it on their website in advance) that drivers may not report for duty today.

 

[trainophile]

Today was a total disaster on Merseyrail. I was travelling back from the South Coast and just missed (by about 2 minutes) a Southport service from Liverpool Central. I went for the bus instead and caught a late running X2. It was busy but I was travelling at 4.30pm. The 47/X2 buses passing my apartment this evening though are really quiet indeed.

They really should have arrange rail replacement buses to cover the times that they, in advance (i.e. their pre planned timetable), didn't expect to run a service (i.e. after about 6.30pm). I can only assume they had a place a 3 hour gap in service to act as a PNB for the drivers that did show in/driver team managers. There was no mention of ticket acceptance on other TOCs. E.g. Liverpool to Chester via Crewe. And no alternative put in place to get passengers to and from places like Ormskirk and Chester.

In future though, I think Merseyrail should arrange for Rail Replacement Buses on all routes on strike days. Even if these only covered the times that the trains were not running and I think they should also plan future strike timetables based on the staff numbers they had in today.

I don't see the problem. You missed the train you wanted to get by two minutes, but there would be another one 28 minutes later. You were able to get a service bus to where you wanted to go, so why the need for RRBs? I would imagine all the places excluded from any train services today would also have a reasonable bus alternative.

I would not think anyone was stranded today, even if they had to modify their usual journeys.

 

[muz379]

Re-read my post again. I am talking about the advance planning for strike days. i.e. Merseyrail original intent was to run a service until about 6.30/7pm. I am saying they could have planned buses/coaches after this time.

Now given their experience of the first strike today, they should use this to make more comprehensive plans for next time. i.e. the use of buses/coaches for the times of day when they are unable to run train services and also ensure that places on their network are not left without a service.

Again, I have not once suggested that they would be buses and drivers sat around. I am talking about a lack of advance planning.

It is also worth noting that it was arguably foreseeable (and Merseyrail even mentioned it on their website in advance) that drivers may not report for duty today.

But given the demands for additional buses across the whole of the north of England today and the fact that coach/bus companies also do not plan to just have a lot of vehicles and drivers sat around doing nothing just in case a widespread industrial dispute breaks out on the railway there is somewhat limited capacity for what bustitution can be provided on strike days hence why TOC messages are not to travel unless absolutely necessary and to make alternative arrangements if you live in certain places or intend to travel at certain times . Look at the trouble sourcing adequate buses the first few days of the recent Liverpool blockade .


As for the fact that drivers not turning in was foreseeable that is arguably a moot point because unless there is official notification of industrial action by ASLEF the company cannot predict how many drivers will make the personal choice to refuse to cross picket lines on the day .

 

[gray1404]

I don't see the problem. You missed the train you wanted to get by two minutes, but there would be another one 28 minutes later. You were able to get a service bus to where you wanted to go, so why the need for RRBs? I would imagine all the places excluded from any train services today would also have a reasonable bus alternative.

I would not think anyone was stranded today, even if they had to modify their usual journeys.

For the daytime yes, bus come the evening there are many places whereby the train service runs for longer then the bus service. For example, (just off the top of my head) the last bus to Southport from Liverpool is at 22:10. The train would be at 23:38. Also, after about say 7pm some buses revert to only being an hourly service.

I was saying RRB for times the trains are not running and to also ensure the service is maintained for later on into the night.

 

[danbarnstall]

But given the demands for additional buses across the whole of the north of England today and the fact that coach/bus companies also do not plan to just have a lot of vehicles and drivers sat around doing nothing just in case a widespread industrial dispute breaks out on the railway there is somewhat limited capacity for what bustitution can be provided on strike days hence why TOC messages are not to travel unless absolutely necessary and to make alternative arrangements if you live in certain places or intend to travel at certain times . Look at the trouble sourcing adequate buses the first few days of the recent Liverpool blockade .


As for the fact that drivers not turning in was foreseeable that is arguably a moot point because unless there is official notification of industrial action by ASLEF the company cannot predict how many drivers will make the personal choice to refuse to cross picket lines on the day .

Arriva operate the local buses in Liverpool, they've been supplying them with buses whilst the track renewal process has been progressing. I was told today unfortunately they had none available for Merseyrail to use as they were to be supplied for Northern routes. Makes sense with Arriva running both.

As for the next strike Aintree looms large. Think it would be a massive own goal if the RMT did opt to strike during the Grand National festival. Locals will soon grow weary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

....like they have on the Southminster branch - yet they were still unable to prevent local oiks from boarding at South Woodham with a motorbike

How exactly do you think a lone guard would prevent that?

He would have to sit in his cab and call BTP assistance to ensure his own safety. A driver could do exactly the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My experience when I was a kid was of no service in the event of strikes.

Though I don't think Merseyrail should be immune to criticism. In my view they would have been better operating to all stations but at a lower frequency i.e. hourly.