RMT Ballot Scotrail Members For Strike Action

[LoogaBarooga]

Scotrail have removed the salary details they originally posted in their statement.

 

[Tom Quinne]

As someone who has just worked 13/14 days on, for the third time since March, partially covering shifts that would otherwise gone uncovered and lead to cancellations I can sympathize.

While passenger numbers may be down , there are still plenty of people out there walking around me not wearing masks etc and no BTP around to actually enforce the rules.

Tbh, there was never much apparent love for rail workers even during he height of the pandemic and cleaners deserve decent pay for the extra duties they've had put on them since March.

Sure, I get annoyed, angry and a wee bit offended when some people on here just think rail workers are there to be beaten down and shouldn't have the temerity to stand up for themselves.

I realise it's a minority, but there are a small, vicious minority who post on here who just seem to constantly smack rail workers in the face at any opportunity.

You’ve noticed as well then.

 

[Tube driver]

I see the race for the bottom is alive and well on here...

 

[dctraindriver]

Haters gotta hate. I’m sure they will love the ‘journos’ freelancing for the usual suspect press stirring it up.....

Total respect to all those staff, cleaners, maintainers platform staff etc keeping our trains running. They thoroughly deserve a wage that reflects those weary days and night shifts and weekends worked.

 

[Daniel740]

Haters gotta hate. I’m sure they will love the ‘journos’ freelancing for the usual suspect press stirring it up.....

Total respect to all those staff, cleaners, maintainers platform staff etc keeping our trains running. They thoroughly deserve a wage that reflects those weary days and night shifts and weekends worked.

I see the race for the bottom is alive and well on here...

These two points entirely. I thought this forum respected everyone who worked on the railways. Apparently not...

 

[Darandio]

These two points entirely. I thought this forum respected everyone who worked on the railways. Apparently not...

There are over 50,000 registered members, granted not all are active. I'm not sure how you can expect to gauge the opinion of everyone.

 

[Ediswan]

My 1970s secondary school headmaster taking exception to some pupils being disrepectful to the cleaners. The tirade starts around 2m25s.

 

[Harold Hill]

It does cut both ways, there is a fair percentage of railway staff who are indifferent or worse towards customers. I live by 'work hard and be nice people'. Having said that, surely, the strike threat cannot be serious!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Using the pandemic as an excuse to repress the wages of working-class people is immoral.

What evidence is there of Scotrail doing that?

 

[peters]

I thought this forum respected everyone who worked on the railways. Apparently not..

Respect is something to be earned (not automatically a given) and it can be lost as well. If a RMT strike disrupts NHS workers at a critical time then the RMT will destroy years of respect people have worked hard to earn by a single stupid decision. Just like poorly trained ticket inspectors can destroy the public's respect for railway staff by handing out a few unjustified penalty fares.

 

[87015]

These two points entirely. I thought this forum respected everyone who worked on the railways. Apparently not...

long, long way to go before all staff treat each other with respect across grades let alone the “outside”

 

[peters]

I wish MPs would set an example by not taking a pay rise. No ammunition for RMT etc then.

It was decided MPs shouldn't be allowed to set their own salaries so an independent body does it based on what other similar professions get. A number of MPs (esp Labour) donate any pay rise to charities.

You should be careful what you say. If an independent body sets rail industry salaries based on what other sectors are paying (like with MPs), then I'd guess only the booking office staff and office staff would get pay rises in the next 10 years and train crews and cleaners would be waiting a lot longer than that!

 

[Starmill]

Wages paid by the railway should be in line with the market more widely.

Indeed. Although they should be setting an example and paying everyone the Real Living Wage of £9.50 / hour (£10.85 if based in London) - which they must do if they wish to keep their accreditation anyway.

Pay increases this year are highly questionable in industries which have been hard hit by Covid.

 

[43096]

As a fat cat network rail employee aka scum of the earth....I have worked pretty much my legal maximum of six twelve hour days with a single Mandatory rest day with another six twelve hour days the whole of the episode.

That’s a front line operational role keeping the railway running, putting my health and that of my family at risk as I work in a air sealed ROC with 14 other people for 12hrs a day.

I expect my bonus, and a pay award next year we’ve worked bloody hard and frankly deserve it.

Shall we call Simon Bates and get you on "Our Tune" with your sob story?

I'm not sure how you expect payrises to be funded, seeing as you've lost half your customers.

 

[High Dyke]

Shall we call Simon Bates and get you on "Our Tune" with your sob story?

I'm not sure how you expect payrises to be funded, seeing as you've lost half your customers.

Not entirely correct. So, I'm not up to speed on how the contracts are written that provide income for Network Rail from TOC's and FOC's; however, there will still be income being received by Network Rail regardless of whether 1 train runs or 1000 trains run.

In the context of the thread I note that the Abellio Scotrail agreement shows:

Conductor	£32220.00 pa​
Trainee Conductor	£19503.00 pa​
Ticket Examiner	£26076.00 pa​
Ticket Barrier	£18313.00 pa​
TraineeTicket Barrier	£17880.00 pa​

Driver	£48359.00 pa​
Newly Qualified Driver	£38194.00 pa​
Newly Qualified Driver (6 months)	£40789.00 pa​
Newly Qualified Driver (9 months)	£43810.00 pa​
Depot Driver (Year 1)	£29059.00 pa​
Depot Driver (Year 2)	£29734.00 pa​
Accommodated Depot Driver (Personal)	£39724.00 pa​
Trainee Driver	£27483.00 pa​
Accommodated Driver (Floor Salary)	£37365.00 pa​

Not certain what this grade entails.

Traincare Grade C1.1

£22760.00 pa​

Traincare Grade A3.3

£48323.00 pa​

Source: http://www.lrd.org.uk/services/payline/rmt/plagree.php?LRDref=AS0420

 

[John Bishop]

Not entirely correct. So, I'm not up to speed on how the contracts are written that provide income for Network Rail from TOC's and FOC's; however, there will still be income being received by Network Rail regardless of whether 1 train runs or 1000 trains run.

In the context of the thread I note that the Abellio Scotrail agreement shows:

Conductor	£32220.00 pa​
Trainee Conductor	£19503.00 pa​
Ticket Examiner	£26076.00 pa​
Ticket Barrier	£18313.00 pa​
TraineeTicket Barrier	£17880.00 pa​

Driver	£48359.00 pa​
Newly Qualified Driver	£38194.00 pa​
Newly Qualified Driver (6 months)	£40789.00 pa​
Newly Qualified Driver (9 months)	£43810.00 pa​
Depot Driver (Year 1)	£29059.00 pa​
Depot Driver (Year 2)	£29734.00 pa​
Accommodated Depot Driver (Personal)	£39724.00 pa​
Trainee Driver	£27483.00 pa​
Accommodated Driver (Floor Salary)	£37365.00 pa​

Not certain what this grade entails.

Traincare Grade C1.1

£22760.00 pa​

Traincare Grade A3.3

£48323.00 pa​

Source: http://www.lrd.org.uk/services/payline/rmt/plagree.php?LRDref=AS0420

Those driver salaries are not up to date. Current salaries are higher now.

 

[6Z09]

The fact that Scotrail have taken to social media to condemn the actions of the RMT is quite shocking. The Union are representing their members.
And to those on here taking the moral high ground, it is perfectly legitimate to ballot their members , not immoral in the least.
The dispute is " Pre Covid "

 

[phantomphish]

As a fat cat network rail employee aka scum of the earth....I have worked pretty much my legal maximum of six twelve hour days with a single Mandatory rest day with another six twelve hour days the whole of the episode.

That’s a front line operational role keeping the railway running, putting my health and that of my family at risk as I work in a air sealed ROC with 14 other people for 12hrs a day.

I expect my bonus, and a pay award next year we’ve worked bloody hard and frankly deserve it.

Wow. I rarely post on here but can't let this go unchallenged as it makes my blood boil.

So you sit in a ROC with 14 other people for 12 hours a day and expect a pay rise? Really? Good on you for working so much. I'm sure you worked hard enough to earn yourself a new computer keyboard and telephone headset. You've deserved it.

You need to get your perspective out of your cosy world and onto that of the front line:

• spend up to 12 hours a day surrounded by the general public who may or may not be infectious (who knows?)
• worry every day about whether one of those members of the public have given you Covid and you may have brought it home to your loved ones
• still have full pay and full shifts and the economic security that that has given, something secure that many thousands or millions who haven't had
• deal with a constantly changing set of timetables, station operating plans, and uncertainties about what happens next whilst being challenged constantly by aforementioned members of the potentially Covid-carrying public
• conduct numerous successful interventions with people who have become suicidal as a result of their circumstances

Those of us who have been out there all the way through on stations and trains are just grateful that we've kept jobs, still had a sense of purpose, and most importantly still managed not to get Covid from the passengers we deal with in close proximity. We've dealt with some of the least responsible elements of society day in and day out, all the way through. Yet as far as I have seen, there is no clamouring for a pay rise. That is not to say we would refuse one, or some sort of bonus, but where would that money come from even if we were to shout?

We're just happy to have survived so far.

I speak for myself, and people are welcome to disagree, it's an open forum. Based on my experience and that of those I work with I'm fairly sure my words echo the sentiments of many of us who have had no luxury of sealing themselves away in ROC whilst all this has been going on. For most of us, this is about keeping key workers moving to do their jobs, about the greater good, not about the extra £££ that you seem to feel entitled to.

Your greed is shameful.

 

[LowLevel]

Wow. I rarely post on here but can't let this go unchallenged as it makes my blood boil.

So you sit in a ROC with 14 other people for 12 hours a day and expect a pay rise? Really? Good on you for working so much. I'm sure you worked hard enough to earn yourself a new computer keyboard and telephone headset. You've deserved it.

You need to get your perspective out of your cosy world and onto that of the front line:

• spend up to 12 hours a day surrounded by the general public who may or may not be infectious (who knows?)
• worry every day about whether one of those members of the public have given you Covid and you may have brought it home to your loved ones
• still have full pay and full shifts and the economic security that that has given, something secure that many thousands or millions who haven't had
• deal with a constantly changing set of timetables, station operating plans, and uncertainties about what happens next whilst being challenged constantly by aforementioned members of the potentially Covid-carrying public
• conduct numerous successful interventions with people who have become suicidal as a result of their circumstances

Those of us who have been out there all the way through on stations and trains are just grateful that we've kept jobs, still had a sense of purpose, and most importantly still managed not to get Covid from the passengers we deal with in close proximity. We've dealt with some of the least responsible elements of society day in and day out, all the way through. Yet as far as I have seen, there is no clamouring for a pay rise. That is not to say we would refuse one, or some sort of bonus, but where would that money come from even if we were to shout?

We're just happy to have survived so far.

I speak for myself, and people are welcome to disagree, it's an open forum. Based on my experience and that of those I work with I'm fairly sure my words echo the sentiments of many of us who have had no luxury of sealing themselves away in ROC whilst all this has been going on. For most of us, this is about keeping key workers moving to do their jobs, about the greater good, not about the extra £££ that you seem to feel entitled to.

Your greed is shameful.

To be fair I can assure you that sealing yourself in a ROC is no way of sealing yourself off from COVID. Best attempts are made to stop it from getting in but when it does it spreads like it does anywhere else.

Most cases of COVID seem to me to spread between staff rather than staff contracting it from passengers - outbreaks in ticket offices and the like.

All of your (and my) knocking about on stations and trains is a complete waste of time if there is no signaller available.

The idea that other staff are somehow not potential disease vectors and can be treated as casually as normal just because you know or associate with them makes them more likely to transmit the virus than the largely well meaning and equally concerned general public. It is all chance.

Hence my own frustration with people treating passengers like lepers and erecting silly tape barriers etc to keep them away when the same individuals will sit with their mates in the mess room gassing away on their break.

I have no interest in a wage increase at present but I think your view of other colleague's roles and the way things are is misguided at best, to be polite.

 

[phantomphish]

Oh, yes, I totally agree about any proximity being a risk - it's just all relative. Being in a ROC compared to being on a Gateline or Platform would be a much more secure environment with less 'relevant risk'. I tempered my post a lot but on re-reading it it sounds more argumentative than I meant, I was just putting a different perspective out there.

And yes, putting up tape and barriers won't stop the passengers from crowding if they feel their immediate needs outweigh that of general public safety consciousness.

(On a side note, I do like your posts LowLevel, and usually find them to be informative and well-balanced. This is no exception. Thankyou )

 

[Tom Quinne]

Wow. I rarely post on here but can't let this go unchallenged as it makes my blood boil.

So you sit in a ROC with 14 other people for 12 hours a day and expect a pay rise? Really? Good on you for working so much. I'm sure you worked hard enough to earn yourself a new computer keyboard and telephone headset. You've deserved

You need to get your perspective out cosy world and onto that of the front line:

• spend up to 12 hours a day surrounded by the general public who may or may not be infectious (who knows?)
• worry every day about whether one of those members of the public have given you Covid and you may have brought it home to your loved ones
• still have full pay and full shifts and the economic security that that has given, something secure that many thousands or millions who haven't had
• deal with a constantly changing set of timetables, station operating plans, and uncertainties about what happens next whilst being challenged constantly by aforementioned members of the potentially Covid-carrying public
• conduct numerous successful interventions with people who have become suicidal as a result of their circumstances

Those of us who have been out there all the way through on stations and trains are just grateful that we've kept jobs, still had a sense of purpose, and most importantly still managed not to get Covid from the passengers we deal with in close proximity. We've dealt with some of the least responsible elements of society day in and day out, all the way through. Yet as far as I have seen, there is no clamouring for a pay rise. That is not to say we would refuse one, or some sort of bonus, but where would that money come from even if we were to shout?

We're just happy to have survived so far.

I speak for myself, and people are welcome to disagree, it's an open forum. Based on my experience and that of those I work with I'm fairly sure my words echo the sentiments of many of us who have had no luxury of sealing themselves away in ROC whilst all this has been going on. For most of us, this is about keeping key workers moving to do their jobs, about the greater good, not about the extra £££ that you seem to feel entitled to.

Your greed is shameful.

We’ve have three C19 cases here, including one Pepsi who thought it was a good idea to come to work infected.
Life in a sealed office in effect isn’t all that I can assure you.

At least on a platform you can benefit from fresh air.

 

[High Dyke]

Those driver salaries are not up to date. Current salaries are higher now.

Thanks for the update.

 

[800001]

We’ve have three C19 cases here, including one Pepsi who thought it was a good idea to come to work infected.
Life in a sealed office in effect isn’t all that I can assure you.

At least on a platform you can benefit from fresh air.

And in York Roc, lead to believe at least 20+ signallers have/had the virus, so as above, life in a ROC isn't all that etc

 

[Tom Quinne]

Maybe people who are clealy extremely anger about cleaners wanting a living wage should pop over to LNER and note their looking for a diversity and inclusion manager on a £70,000 salary!

As a side note, cleaners the same guys many on here are saying aren’t worth a living wage are the same people applying the anti C19 sprays to carriages keep you safe.

The bottom line is it’s a case of people looking down their nose at cleaners, jealous they earn a decent wage and you don’t.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we're done here. Everyone has had an opportunity to put their initial reactions and thoughts across but the reality is that we don't have much detail to discuss at this stage so the thread is now locked until there is a further update on the results of any ballot or the wider dispute. Anyone spotting any news please feel free to report this post (button at the bottom of this post) and provide a link to the update and we can look at re-opening it.

I would also just like to post as reminder to everyone to think about what you are posting before you post it. This Forum is read by a wide range of people from a wide range of backgrounds including a large number of railway employees (in a wide range of roles). It is therefore important that you consider how your contribution might be read by someone who is an awful lot closer (or even involved) in any dispute. How they might feel to see someone saying that they, a colleague, or even just someone likely in a similar situation might feel if they're told that their work is overvalued and they are as a result overpaid.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and is entitled to post that opinion (well within reason ) please just think about what you are saying and how you say it. You should keep the Forum Rules in mind when making your posts. Particularly those under the heading "Respectful" and especially the point about not provoking other members.

Again just something to keep in mind

Many thanks,
ainsworth74

 

[scotraildriver]

Ballot result:

Strike action YES: 756 NO: 631
Action short of a strike YES: 955 NO: 432

However only 1393 votes returned from 2445 issued so YES is 31% of available votes. The legal minimum is 40% so the action is rejected.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst no doubt the RMT will suggest that it was a big win, and blame the law about minimum yes votes etc., this masks a difficult position for them. With such a tight vote, it would have been difficult to mandate strike action, as I suspect there would be not a few people who would have ignored the mandate, potentially handing in their membership card to do so. Particularly in the current circumstances.

And, ultimately, the union needs members to pay the bills.

 

[ainsworth74]

Strike action YES: 756 NO: 631
Action short of a strike YES: 955 NO: 432

However only 1387 votes returned from 2445 issued so YES is 31% of available votes. The legal minimum is 40% so the action is rejected.

Perhaps a bit of tactical abstaining on the part of those being balloted?

Whilst no doubt the RMT will suggest that it was a big win, and blame the law about minimum yes votes etc., this masks a difficult position for them. With such a tight vote, it would have been difficult to mandate strike action, as I suspect there would be not a few people who would have ignored the mandate, potentially handing in their membership card to do so. Particularly in the current circumstances.

And, ultimately, the union needs members to pay the bills.

You are clearly a mind reader...

While this is a positive result with a clear majority favouring the union’s position of taking strike action and action short of strike, the prohibitive anti-union laws requiring 40% of those entitled to vote to vote YES has not been reached and because the 40% threshold has not been met, we are unable to use the mandate you have given us.

Rates of Pay & Conditions of Service 2020 - Scotrail

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[scotraildriver]

The question for the RMT is why 1052 members chose not to vote at all. Listening to the general chat I think that if these people had voted it would have been very embarrassing for the union.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps a bit of tactical abstaining on the part of those being balloted?

No doubt, and quite a lot of it. Which makes the No vote (against union recommendation) even more surprising, as it means a not insignificant number of people felt strongly enough that it was a bad idea to get out and cast a vote accordingly.

You are clearly a mind reader...

It was rather predictable! It will certainly be food for thought for any other branches considering similar action.