RIS-3751-TOM Iss 4 - Psychometric Testing Attempts Update - 07/12/2024

[NSEWonderer]

RSSB has made an update to RIS-3751-TOM which deals with all things to do with psychometric testing and candidate finding: RIS-3751-TOM Iss 4

Summary Of Changes​

RIS-3751-TOM Iss 4 has been updated and aligned to current good practice and legislation for train driver psychometric assessments. The title has been updated to better reflect the content of the standard. The structure has been revised to include rationale and guidance relevant to each requirement, including relevant applicable legislation and guidance documents.
The requirements on the validity period of psychometric tests, the number of attempts, and the delivery of assessment have been revised also. The new issue of the standard includes updated appendices and associated new forms.

In summary attempt 3 can only take place, 5 years after attempt 1 was failed. The standard 6 months wait for the 2nd attempt has gone up 2x now to 1 year.

Applies to candidates who've not sat any psychometric assessments before 7th December 2024

 

[kourblimey]

So 3 attempts now at becoming a driver, instead of the previous 2 attempts? Good news for many

 

[Scrambled Eggs]

Attempt 3 - An extremely long wait period on top of any previous passes will have to be retaken as the passes are valid for 5 years. On attempt 3 one final chance to resit stage 1 and 2 sounds very challenging but potentially fortunate for some.

 

[Kay_M]

Oh that is very good news.

 

[Jaytrains]

Good news for many that done it twice but dreamed of becoming a driver

 

[nolypops83]

Bit of a pain if you've just failed and have to wait a year instead of 6 months but good news for those who now get a 3rd go.

 

[nick40uk]

I failed the 1st attempt back in 2017 (I think. It was at least 5 years ago) and sat again last week. So would I be right in thinking if I have failed this time, I would only have to wait until December next year?

 

[NSEWonderer]

I failed the 1st attempt back in 2017 (I think. It was at least 5 years ago) and sat again last week. So would I be right in thinking if I have failed this time, I would only have to wait until December next year?

Yes according to the above table G.C.1.5

 

[12guard4]

If you are already in the system, you are not covered under this. You have 2 attempts. So if you have failed twice already, you don't get a 3rd go. Likewise if you have failed once you only have 1 attempt remaining.

This is for new applicants who have not applied before.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[pharaoh1368]

So I failed my CBI with Avanti in June and currently have applications out awaiting assessments... will my application now be withdrawn being that the time has been extended to a year instead of 6 months... seems harsh

 

[greatkingrat]

If you are already in the system, you are not covered under this. You have 2 attempts. So if you have failed twice already, you don't get a 3rd go. Likewise if you have failed once you only have 1 attempt remaining.

This is for new applicants who have not applied before.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Where does it say that in the policy?

 

[NSEWonderer]

If you are already in the system, you are not covered under this. You have 2 attempts. So if you have failed twice already, you don't get a 3rd go. Likewise if you have failed once you only have 1 attempt remaining.

This is for new applicants who have not applied before.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

This is incorrect.

Attempts and reassessments

Transport operators shall allow candidates a maximum of three attempts at passing the train driver psychometric assessment process.
If the candidate fails the first attempt, transport operators shall only allow the second attempt to take place a minimum of one year after the first attempt.
If a candidate fails the second attempt, transport operators shall only allow a final attempt to take place a minimum of five years after the first attempt and a minimum of one year after the second attempt.
When a candidate is re-assessed on the third and final attempt, transport operators shall cover the full psychometric assessment process.

There is no statement in the above mentioning "New Candidates only"

 

[12guard4]

It also doesn't say it isn't new candidates only.

Just because it isn't the news you are wanting to hear, doesn't mean it isn't true.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2024 ==

So I failed my CBI with Avanti in June and currently have applications out awaiting assessments... will my application now be withdrawn being that the time has been extended to a year instead of 6 months... seems harsh

No, you're under the old RIS the new one doesn't apply to you

 

[greatkingrat]

It also doesn't say it isn't new candidates only.

Just because it isn't the news you are wanting to hear, doesn't mean it isn't true.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Dec 2024 ==


No, you're under the old RIS the new one doesn't apply to you

Do you have any evidence or are you just guessing?

 

[12guard4]

Do you have any evidence or are you just guessing?

It's all on the RSSB website, I won't be sharing things publicly that are behind a log in as they're behind a log in for a reason and it wouldn't be right for me to share them here.

If you want certainty on your specific situation, contact the TOCs recruitment team.

 

[greatkingrat]

I've now found the RSSB FAQ document, looks like it is new people only. Don't really see the logic of it though. Why is someone who failed in 2025 and 2027 any more or less deserving of a third chance than someone who failed in 2022 and 2024?



20. If I undertook the psychometrics assessment before 7 December 2024, how does the new attempts rule affect me? The ‘two attempts rule’ will apply to any candidate who completed any part of the standardised psychometric assessment process before 7 December 2024. After two failed attempts, you cannot have any more attempts at the process. The examples below illustrate how the ‘two attempts rule’ will still apply after 7 December 2024: • In 2023, Zack sat the complete psychometric assessment process and failed. He has a new application in process and will be assessed again in January 2025. As Zack has already had one failed attempt at the process and this was before 7 December 2024, if he fails again, he cannot have any more attempts at the process. • In 2021, Joel sat part of the assessment and failed this. As Joel already had one failed attempt at the process and this was before 7 December 2024, if Joel fails again, he cannot have any more attempts at the process. • In 2018, Sam had their first attempt at the psychometric assessment process and failed. They also failed the second attempt in 2019. Sam cannot have any more attempts at the process. • In 2023, Debbie sat part of the psychometric assessment and passed this. She has two attempts to pass all the psychometric assessments.

 

[12guard4]

@Samzino Here is the information for you

 

[NSEWonderer]

That's interesting, that's thrown a Spanner in the works for sure. Thanks for hint 12guard4 nonetheless.

 

[choochoochoo]

So those who failed twice prior to December 2024 will have to wait until the tests get changed for their 2 lives to be reset ?

 

[NSEWonderer]

So those who failed twice prior to December 2024 will have to wait until the tests get changed for their 2 lives to be reset ?

Correct

 

[Kay_M]

After reading this more this has somewhat made me feel a lot of mixed emotions. On one hand it's great I didn't go for the assessment when missing out around 2019-20 but this now means added pressure on myself to ensure I don't fail anymore assessments otherwise it's game over.

Sorry for those that fall into the category of doing the test twice before this change. Hopefully things look up for you folks in the future.

 

[piers1234]

Correct

Excellent news.

 

[skyhigh]

Excellent news.

Is it?

If you've already failed once/twice, you aren't allowed a third go until the tests reset. If you're in that situation, it doesn't sound that excellent to me...

 

[12LDA28C]

Is it?

If you've already failed once/twice, you aren't allowed a third go until the tests reset. If you're in that situation, it doesn't sound that excellent to me...

I don't think it's good news by any measure.

If you've failed the tests twice, that should give a fairly strong indication that you don't have the skills and qualities necessary to become a successful train driver. Having the opportunity to take them a third time will just attract candidates who have learnt, through failure, how to pass the tests which is not necessarily the kind of people the industry should be employing to drive trains.

 

[Spincity]

I don't think it's good news by any measure.

If you've failed the tests twice, that should give a fairly strong indication that you don't have the skills and qualities necessary to become a successful train driver. Having the opportunity to take them a third time will just attract candidates who have learnt, through failure, how to pass the tests which is not necessarily the kind of people the industry should be employing to drive trains.

Agree. But having only 3 attempts over 5 years, 1 year after a fail will prevent learning.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Agree. But having only 3 attempts over 5 years, 1 year after a fail will prevent learning.

This. In my opinion there is much more than just the psychometrics to sift out a candidate that hasn't got the requisites before they handle a train by themselves.

Having three lives in my opinion should have been the norm. It attracts more people because they effectively have the opportunity to trial if potentially the career is for them without waiting tiill they feel "prepared" to do the assessments, due to the risk of only having one life if failing.

What I don't agree with is that is specifically locked to completely new candidates only, especially if the changes are suppose to increase the number of candidates applying for these jobs against the potential shortage.

 

[Spincity]

This. In my opinion there is much more than just the psychometrics to sift out a candidate that hasn't got the requisites before they handle a train by themselves.

Having three lives in my opinion should have been the norm. It attracts more people because they effectively have the opportunity to trial if potentially the career is for them without waiting tiill they feel "prepared" to do the assessments, due to the risk of only having one life if failing.

What I don't agree with is that is specifically locked to completely new candidates only, especially if the changes are suppose to increase the number of candidates applying for these jobs against the potential shortage.

Why does having 3 lives attract more people. Do you think people have not sat the process because they realised they could only fail it twice. Sorry I don’t understand that people have a trial to see if they have a career. The psychometrics are not a job trial, they are an assessment tool.

What more sifting do you want, there are only few people that fail the training/leave after due to capabilities. To me that would support that the current process is probably identifying those with the potential.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Why does having 3 lives attract more people. Do you think people have not sat the process because they realised they could only fail it twice. Sorry I don’t understand that people have a trial to see if they have a career. The psychometrics are not a job trial, they are an assessment tool.

What more sifting do you want, there are only few people that fail the training/leave after due to capabilities. To me that would support that the current process is probably identifying those with the potential.

I've known several people and will continue to see(including on this fourm) that have only focused on the two lives aspect of the testing and held back "till the right moment" whenever that is. There's clearly been a reason why the RSSB has revised the attempts from 2 to 3 and almost coincidentally when we're approaching a national shortage of Drivers.

I'm very aware they're an assessment tool, however that doesn't discount that for some(yes not everyone) having an attempt you can use to just experience the tests is ideal. You mention the "current process" but even with this change it's still similar as that third attempt will most likely see you resitting all the tests regardless.

 

[12LDA28C]

This. In my opinion there is much more than just the psychometrics to sift out a candidate that hasn't got the requisites before they handle a train by themselves.

Having three lives in my opinion should have been the norm. It attracts more people because they effectively have the opportunity to trial if potentially the career is for them without waiting tiill they feel "prepared" to do the assessments, due to the risk of only having one life if failing.

What I don't agree with is that is specifically locked to completely new candidates only, especially if the changes are suppose to increase the number of candidates applying for these jobs against the potential shortage.

Why should having three lives 'have been the norm'? Why not four or five? How many chances do people need to pass the testing process?

Yes there are plenty more opportunities to 'sift out' a candidate that isn't suitable prior to qualifying as a driver but the OPC testing is designed to allow only the most suitable candidates through to potential employment. Save for the DMI and medical, the OPC testing is the final barrier to employment as a trainee driver and potential candidates should be grateful that they get any more than one attempt to pass the tests. It's rather less than ideal to employ someone, spend a large amount of time, resources and money training them only for them to fail to qualify, fortunately this is reasonably rare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

I'm very aware they're an assessment tool, however that doesn't discount that for some(yes not everyone) having an attempt you can use to just experience the tests is ideal. You mention the "current process" but even with this change it's still similar as that third attempt will most likely see you resitting all the tests regardless.

I'd suggest that anyone who uses their first attempt at OPC 'just to experience the tests' is much less than ideal. That is not the kind of attitude we should be encouraging - applicants should be aiming to pass the tests on the first attempt, simple as that.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Why should having three lives 'have been the norm'? Why not four or five? How many chances do people need to pass the testing process?

Yes there are plenty more opportunities to 'sift out' a candidate that isn't suitable prior to qualifying as a driver but the OPC testing is designed to allow only the most suitable candidates through to potential employment. Save for the DMI and medical, the OPC testing is the final barrier to employment as a trainee driver and potential candidates should be grateful that they get any more than one attempt to pass the tests. It's rather less than ideal to employ someone, spend a large amount of time, resources and money training them only for them to fail to qualify, fortunately this is reasonably rare.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==



I'd suggest that anyone who uses their first attempt at OPC 'just to experience the tests' is much less than ideal. That is not the kind of attitude we should be encouraging - applicants should be aiming to pass the tests on the first attempt, simple as that.

Fair enough all valid points.