Rioting students

[Pumbaa]

Genuine question this - how are students unions funded?

Most student unions are funded by their University. Where this arrangement does not exist, students pay directly into the Union via the University, rather than the University doing so on their behalf.

The NUS receives no public funding and is fully self-funding. I think all Student Unions or Guilds in this country belong to the NUS - the relationship here is identical.

 

[Mojo]

I think all Student Unions or Guilds in this country belong to the NUS - the relationship here is identical.

My Student Guild left a few years before I started as the NUS were seen as too left wing and also a not very good use of money. I think quite a few Unions and Guilds have left the NUS for similar political and financial reasons.

 

[Pumbaa]

What I will report on here is: the vast majority of those in the procession were young people, clearly happy to be part of a big and significant event and had every intention of remaining with the body of the procession, moving at a modest walking pace, looking and sounding cheerful and in good spirit.

Exceptionally, there were a few individuals, clearly identifiable by covered faces and enclosed hoods, carrying no banners and not having the cheerful disposition of the majority, who were working outside the body of the procession at potential points of deviation from the route - they were running (some in crouched positions below most sight lines) on the pavements at the periphery of the procession, and at right angles to the procession - where they could achieve a 'break-out'.
When they succeeded, a) others were somehow made quickly aware and a hundred or more protesters would take the diversion,
b) those 'break-out' marches were much more rowdy and agressive in nature, and apparently older; and
c) Police officers were responsive to these 'deviations' and in those cases only did I see personal contact, apparently in an attempt to sustain the planned route and none others.

I saw many police officers' indentification numbers. I wasn't checking so I cannot confirm that numbers were visible on all officers.
Many of those walking in the parade were young - I cannot say if any were under 16 but will say that they would have been a small minority if at all.

With thanks DaveNewcastle.

I have no doubt that many police officers did wear ID, but others chose to remove it, and when questioned responded by shoving the questioners back into the crowd. This surely is unacceptable.

And I have no doubt, as do many, that the march mostly was peaceful. I do not think the violence demonstrated was done so by students, but anarchic breakaway groups.

And I wondered how long it would take for Mstr Gilmour to emerge onto the thread! I find his actions distasteful to say the least, and I hope he serves retribution fairly.
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My Student Guild left a few years before I started as the NUS were seen as too left wing and also a not very good use of money. I think quite a few Unions and Guilds have left the NUS for similar political and financial reasons.

Of over 700 odd affiliates, 9 Universities are not members of the NSU; these are Southampton, Durham, St Andrews, Glasgow (one of them), Dundee, Imperial College London, Sunderland, Aston and UMIST.

 

[Mojo]

Of over 700 odd affiliates, 9 Universities are not members of the NSU; these are Southampton, Durham, St Andrews, Glasgow (one of them), Dundee, Imperial College London, Sunderland, Aston and UMIST.

Thank you - I was wondering if there was an update. At the time when I first researched it (after wondering why I couldn't get a card for a student discount (I registered at my former sixthform college instead)) I think there were only about 3 or so institutions which were not members.

I suppose the left wing elite running many of these student unions in their annual ego boosting event probably wouldn't even want to see themselves disassociated (or whatever the proper term is) with the NUS for political reasons and the fact it would stop their jollies away to attend rallies and conferences.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

This is gibberish and false attributing of made-up quotes. There will be a correlation, of course, between people who are 'poor' and people who travel on a bus. The definition of 'poor' is subjective, but it is pretty obvious that if someone does not earn a lot of money, then they are unlikely to own a car, so are highly likely to rely on public transport. To then make the leap that 'anyone' who travels on a bus is poor is not correct.

Just because a service is used by a certain group of people that does not mean that all the people who use that service are a member of that group.

Really? You seemed to bring out the stereotypes in this post:

They are causing damage to our property. They are totally against the working classes and have demonstrated this by destroying bus stops and attacking buses. They do want to bring our government down and they have posters saying that!

[/QUOTE]
And in many other posts you have linked being in the working classes to being poor.

 

[yorkie]

Really? You seemed to bring out the stereotypes in this post:

And who do you think "they" are? You can judge for yourself who "they" are; I'm did not name a particular group in what you quoted, I am referring simply to the people who did those things. So, no, I am not stereotyping. If you are assuming "they" means "all students" then it is fabricated by you. I suggest you think again. I have said countless times that I believe the majority of students are not like that, and that I was as student myself.

If you see people acting a certain way and make comments about how "they" act, that is not a "stereotype", it only becomes a stereotype if you then make assumptions that all people in a certain group are "they".

It is interesting that you no longer debate on any actual points, and you are reduced to attempting to imply that people said things they did not say. I find that disappointing.

And as for the poor vs rich argument, remind me, which side made the claims that it is poor people who are missing out? Who claims, falsely, to be representing the interests of poor people? And what is the reality that has been exposed?

 

[jon0844]

We cannot keep conning the younger generation into thinking that any old degree is a worthwhile qualification to have. A respected degree on the other hand, like Law/Medicine/Business will always carry weight, especially if you have a 2:1 or above.

But even when I was at school, Uni was talked about as the place where you had fun, met new people, travelled, got laid easily in freshers week (that was the hope!) and beyond, got cheap drink and the studying was almost secondary - you just needed to make sure you weren't kicked off!

That's what friends did (I set up my own business after college) and some did work hard and do very well.. others didn't. But, that was in the early 1990s and before there were any fees.

Now it seems that more people than ever see Uni as a way of delaying the need to get a job - and the Government encouraged it for that reason. Not only that, but even bad students don't get expelled as the Uni gets funding for the number of students it has - so they turn a blind eye. Thus, like society in general, lack of any proper enforcement just allows more people to take the p**s and get away with it.

I feel for the hard working students who have to carry the bad ones, but their hard work and perseverance will ultimately separate them in the years to come.

Goodness knows that the others end up doing.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And who do you think "they" are? You can judge for yourself who "they" are; I'm did not name a particular group in what you quoted, I am referring simply to the people who did those things. So, no, I am not stereotyping. If you are assuming "they" means "all students" then it is fabricated by you. I suggest you think again. I have said countless times that I believe the majority of students are not like that, and that I was as student myself.

How can you say you didn't name a particular group?! You clearly said they are against the working classes because they attacked a bus shelter.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was talking about the students, considering I didn't even mention them? Sounds like fabrication.

It is interesting that you no longer debate on any actual points, and you are reduced to attempting to imply that people said things they did not say. I find that disappointing.

It is disappointing to note that rather than speak a reasoned argument you have resorted to grasping to straws, and flinging mud.

 

[mumrar]

It is disappointing to note that rather than speak a reasoned argument you have resorted to grasping to straws, and flinging mud.

It disappointing for me to note that despite me bringing it up on two previous occassions, that I shall have to make a third attempt to get you to make any response to the following.

People are losing their jobs.
People are losing their homes.
Families are sometimes broken apart by these stresses.
People have saved thousands for deposits on morgage deals that no longer exist.
People have seen their pensions shrink and retirement plans ruined.
Food and drink prices are increasing rapidly.
Fuel for vehicles and home energy is shooting up.
Insurance costs are escalating.

ALL of the above has far more consequences for people than whether or not you can go to University. Most of these problems spur from the financial crisis, which is exactly why budgets are being cut. Yet people suffering these things have not marched on parliament and city centres, and minorities of them have not desecrated national monuments either.

Why do students think that their OPTIONAL choice of university should be free/protected from cuts, when so many life requirements that are NOT optional are becoming more expensive, and people are just getting on with it??

It's downright ungrateful and selfish!

Please ralphchadkirk, try and actually at least acknowledge the post this time, even if you don't answer the questions. You say you're after debate, well I'm trying to have one, but you seem unwilling to take part.

 

[scotsman]

How is it selfish to expect a decent education without too much cost? If we keep this philosophy going, what will we have left?

http://angusduncanstypings.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-tuition-fees-are-threatening-life.html - This explains my point rather well

 

[theblackwatch]

How is it selfish to expect a decent education without too much cost? If we keep this philosophy going, what will we have left?

http://angusduncanstypings.blogspot.com/2010/12/why-tuition-fees-are-threatening-life.html - This explains my point rather well

It is selfish to expect everyone else to suffer the burden in this recession. As Mumrar rightly points out, everyone is having to suffere consequences - except it seems that, in the view of some, it should apply to everyone except students.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Please ralphchadkirk, try and actually at least acknowledge the post this time, even if you don't answer the questions. You say you're after debate, well I'm trying to have one, but you seem unwilling to take part.

Apologies, I didn't notice your posts.

I will take your list in order:
People are losing their jobs. - affects students - the majority have jobs as well.
People are losing their homes - affects students usually in the second or third years
Families are sometimes broken apart by these stresses - undoubtably.
People have saved thousands for deposits on morgage deals that no longer exist - yes, and that is an issue for the banks.
People have seen their pensions shrink and retirement plans ruined - Will affect students in the long run
Food and drink prices are increasing rapidly - affects students
Fuel for vehicles and home energy is shooting up - the fuel for vehicles will not affect students, but home energy certainly will.
Insurance costs are escalating - affects students.

However, these are only short-term things. Reducing the number of people going to university will not affect the country straight away, but in 5 or 10 years when we see Britain slipping down the world standings, hopefully people will realise they were wrong about raising student fees.

 

[Ferret]

That seems to be a bit of a non-answer Ralph! Of course, all of what Mumrar said could apply to a student. But, the question was, why did we not see the 'squeezed middle' taking to the streets when we got backshafted by a combination of the Government's reckless spending and the banking crash? Why are the student tuition fees a special case now?

 

[mumrar]

I fail to believe we will fall down the lists at all. Our university system has become a mockery due to over-saturation. If everyone has one, what will an employer use to seperate interviewees? Common sense, values and ability to think logically. It's arguable that none of this is learnt at university.

If we keep funding something that has been allowed to become so supplementary, it's a big waste of money.

This country's economy will no be rescued by those who attend universities, but by those who get educated to a reasonable level and get out and graft. People's perceptions of being able to wait for job they want should be dead and buried. Work first, choose a job later.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It is not just the degree that the student does that helps. It's the associated studying skills for instance that also help.

This country's economy will no be rescued by those who attend universities, but by those who get educated to a reasonable level and get out and graft. People's perceptions of being able to wait for job they want should be dead and buried. Work first, choose a job later

This country's economy will not be rescued by only those who work, and it will not be rescued by those who only go to university. It will be a mixture of the two, engineers, doctors, lawyers and teachers, as well as those who provide the country with an underestimated vital infrastructure; council workers, guards etc. We all have to work together.

 

[mumrar]

This country's economy will not be rescued by only those who work, and it will not be rescued by those who only go to university. It will be a mixture of the two, engineers, doctors, lawyers and teachers, as well as those who provide the country with an underestimated vital infrastructure; council workers, guards etc. We all have to work together.

Yes we do, but the difference is the university students want their study and learning to be funded by the taxpayers, those who get training from employers get paid out of the company's and council's budget that comes from earnings, rather than money given to them wholly from the government.

 

[scotsman]

Ok then, is it fair that my free University education will not be held in the same regard as someone who has paid for their's? (Even if they attend the same Uni but aren't eligable for free tuition fees)

 

[Ferret]

(Ferret searches for a confused emoticon!) Scotsman - is that what will happen? If so, why?

 

[scotsman]

(Ferret searches for a confused emoticon!) Scotsman - is that what will happen? If so, why?

The basis is that they paid! Honestly, because I'm apparently 'taking a freebie' my qualification won't carry the weighting with some employers. Not worth paying £9k just to get the same weighting though, it's the same education.

 

[mumrar]

I'm joining the search for a confused emoticon. I'm not sure why an employer would consider it relevant. But if your's is free and someone elses isn't, then your degrees are not identical, they'd be at different universities surely? As in the free one in Scotland, and paying in England. I note you use £9k in your example, where this is an exceptional fee that individual universities will have to apply to justify charging, and may still be refused.

 

[Ferret]

Not sure that's right Mr Scotsman to be honest! They'll be more interested in whether you've got a 2:1 or not!!!!

 

[Hydro]

Assuming this gaffa taped together government stays in power that long, I'd be interested to see if these increases will be rescinded once the country is back in the black, so to speak.

 

[mumrar]

It never happens with energy bills, which increase and we get told are 'directly linked to wholesale prices', yet when the wholesale price drops, this direct link suddenly vanishes.

 

[theblackwatch]

(Ferret searches for a confused emoticon!) Scotsman - is that what will happen? If so, why?

I think this is the one for you (and Mumrar, and myself) to use:

:-?

 

[scotsman]

I'm joining the search for a confused emoticon. I'm not sure why an employer would consider it relevant. But if your's is free and someone elses isn't, then your degrees are not identical, they'd be at different universities surely? As in the free one in Scotland, and paying in England. I note you use £9k in your example, where this is an exceptional fee that individual universities will have to apply to justify charging, and may still be refused.

No, for example. If me and someone (let's say, from the USA - so he's not able to get free tuition fees) do the same degree. Some employers will give him preferrence on the basis that he had cared about his education that he'd gone and paid. Or simply the fact that I got mine for free when he paid.

Not sure that's right Mr Scotsman to be honest! They'll be more interested in whether you've got a 2:1 or not!!!!

They'd definitely be interested in that too, but my information is coming from a very good souce. Sadly this snobbishness means I will have to work harder (not that it's a problem) to cancel out any sort of discrimination I may encounter.

 

[Ferret]

Hmmmm, I can just about accept that maybe the smallest of small minorities of companies could do that, but most will be more concerned with what your marks were, and also how you come across in an interview! Anyway, don't work hard for fear of any perceived snobbery, work hard because you understand the jobs market is a complete ******* at the moment. There'll be loads of people just like you all wanting the same jobs and if you want one, *you* have to stand out!

 

[Hydro]

It never happens with energy bills, which increase and we get told are 'directly linked to wholesale prices', yet when the wholesale price drops, this direct link suddenly vanishes.

That's exactly what I was thinking about. Prices always go up as a reaction to some change in the market (petrol goes up when oil goes up, bills go up when Russia gets tight on it's gas pipelines, now uni fees increase due to funding being cut to dig the UK out of a hole). It's rare for them to drop once the dark cloud passes.

As much as unis will have to adjust fees to cover the funding gap, it will be sad to see these measures become the standard - the same goes for the cutting in funding for everything else.

 

[yorkie]

How can you say you didn't name a particular group?! You clearly said they are against the working classes because they attacked a bus shelter.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was talking about the students, considering I didn't even mention them? Sounds like fabrication.


It is disappointing to note that rather than speak a reasoned argument you have resorted to grasping to straws, and flinging mud.

OK, who is "they" and who am I discriminating against?
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No, for example. If me and someone (let's say, from the USA - so he's not able to get free tuition fees) do the same degree. Some employers will give him preferrence on the basis that he had cared about his education that he'd gone and paid. Or simply the fact that I got mine for free when he paid.


They'd definitely be interested in that too, but my information is coming from a very good souce. Sadly this snobbishness means I will have to work harder (not that it's a problem) to cancel out any sort of discrimination I may encounter.

I think that students need to stop going on about 'discrimination'. It's getting tedious.

And your argument appears to be that the more you pay in fees, the more likely you are not to be discriminated against, is that right? I find that hard to believe, but if it's true, then the fees increase would actually assist your chances and end this supposed 'discrimination'!

 

[scotsman]

I think that students need to stop going on about 'discrimination'. It's getting tedious.

And your argument appears to be that the more you pay in fees, the more likely you are not to be discriminated against, is that right? I find that hard to believe, but if it's true, then the fees increase would actually assist your chances and end this supposed 'discrimination'!

No, it's the fact that they paid and I didn't. It should be the same whether you've paid or not! Your argument is accepting that the discriminators are in the right.

 

[yorkie]

No, it's the fact that they paid and I didn't. It should be the same whether you've paid or not! Your argument is accepting that the discriminators are in the right.

It's not my argument. I said I find it difficult to believe. However, if you really do believe that your job prospects are enhanced by the fact you paid fees, then it sounds like an argument in favour of fees to me.

As I said before, I doubt it's true though!