Rioting students

[LE Greys]

Similarly I wouldn't discount the notion that some of the instigators were agent provocateurs intent on undermining the protests. The tactic is not unheard of either!

Quite possible. I was right in front of a group of Anarchists at one point, including the one doing the karate kick into the window of Tory HQ, as seen on various front pages. Generally, their idea is to use whatever movement they can to attack authority. They may have been students, or they may not. I kept some of their literature, and it included a guide to shoplifting and squatting, which I intend to pass on to my local Post Office.

They did have an interesting chant,
"Build a bonfire, build a bonfire, put the Tories on the top, put the Lib Dems in the middle and we'll burn the f***ing lot"
I'm just repeating what they said.

 

[90019]

I kept some of their literature, and it included a guide to shoplifting and squatting, which I intend to pass on to my local Post Office.

What do you think the Post Office are planning on doing hock:

 

[LE Greys]

What do you think the Post Office planning on doing hock:

It's always useful to have a copy of the opposition's training manual. Prevention is better than cure!

 

[Oswyntail]

I've noticed that it seems to be the Met that are the worst.

From what I've heard from a friend who was part of Lothian & Borders at the time, they were apalled by the conduct of the Met police who were in Edinburgh to help out with the G20 protests.

That was certainly the case in the 80's miners dispute. Local police would dread having the "help" from London, which would almost inevitably result in violence in an otherwise controlled situation.
However, Mrs O was watching the major "kettling" from a balcony in Richmond House in Whitehall, almost directly above it. She says that what was noticeable was that the police did not "attack" but simply stood there; most of the protestors were also fairly placid, and seemed to be enjoying the demo in peace. However, there were a handful of people in the crowd who seemed to be moving around and stirring up violent behaviour, then moving on once it had started.

 

[Mojo]

Lots of the police vans were parked on the street outside my work (part on the pavement) on Weds and I noticed that the City of London Police also sent a fair few officers too. I wonder if there was any difference between the styles of policing between the City Police and the Met and whether they were doing any different work.

It would be interesting to find out...

 

[Nevasleep]

Unfortunately the lib dems went around university campuses/accommodation with 'cut tuition fees' being their main policy. In some seats I bet student votes were the decider.
They deserve all they get.
Also some lib dems are now abstaining against the vote.....which is a joke, as it won't do anything, apart from trying to look good.

Personally I think its good to see the students protesting, and the gov getting some stick. The damage hasn't really been excessive imo, apart from a few incidents, fire extinguisher, buses(in use) getting attacked etc.

Also there seemed to be quite a few police vans, and horse boxes in Manchester City Centre today. Were they expecting trouble too?

 

[me123]

Also some lib dems are now abstaining against the vote.....which is a joke, as it won't do anything, apart from trying to look good.

I believe that Charles Kennedy is to rebel and vote against the proposals. Given that he's chancellor of the University of Glasgow, any other action would see him be lynched by the students without a doubt.

In all fairness to the Lib Dems, I supported them going into the coalition. At the very least they then had the opportunity to get some of their policies onto the table; let's face it, under FPTP they'd have otherwise had no chance. But they have let down the students who have faithfully supported them, and undoubtedly they've let down the anti-nuclear campaigners as well (because they plan only to abstain from a vote on Trident IIRC). That's a pretty huge proportion of their supporters.

 

[mumrar]

Why do the LibDems deserve everything they get? They are not the majority party in the coalition and as such won't have as much say. Not forgetting that the Tories, being used to government, will know how to manipulate things their way far better than the always bystanders of the LibDems.

I know why people are demonstrating, but I don't know what they are hoping to achieve from how they're going about, excluding the thuggish miority. Even the non-violent protests are breaching security and other kinds of disorder.

It has been discussed to death on here as to all sides of the argument, but regardless of the student votes going to the LibDems, they'd always be first choice coalition partner for someone, there's no significant alternative.

We have massive financial debts to start paying back as a nation, but are the students expecting the 'adult' (I.e. Out of education) population to fund the repayments via job cuts, pay freezes, unpaid overtime, higher VAT etc. whilst they want the tuition fees scrapped? That's hardly fair. Council budgets and other local service budgets are being cut everywhere, meaning that people in the supply chains will suffer. To demand some form of financial immunity against the credit crunch whilst committing to a large number of years of not paying taxes from employment sees rather contradictory.

Time and again we've heard the higher than average gradute earnings used as a defence for the late start into paying taxes, but now when people point to higher than average graduate earnings as a reason to why they can repay tuition fees, that's suddenly not fair. With the failsafes in place that mean you don't always have to pay the loan straight back it isn't as awful as some make out.

Crikey, I have earnings which I can borrow money against, versus the potential future income of a graduate, but I can't get terms that say 'don't pay back if you can't afford it' or an interest rate anything like as low as the student loan rates. People should look around and reality check. If you look at Britain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain, its clear we were living financial lies - things need to change, and this is one of them!

 

[yorksrob]

People should look around and reality check. If you look at Britain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain, its clear we were living financial lies - things need to change, and this is one of them!

Well the state now owns significant shares in several large financial institutions. Let's hope that when these institutions are making a profit again, the state will retain those significant shares in perpetuity so that the taxpayer can cream off the rewards of it's investment on top of any lawful taxation. Sadly, I suspect that this is moonshine as those shares will most likely be flogged off to big business at a knock down price as soon they start generating a return.

Welcome to Establishment Britain.

 

[yorkie]

We have massive financial debts to start paying back as a nation, but are the students expecting the 'adult' (I.e. Out of education) population to fund the repayments via job cuts, pay freezes, unpaid overtime, higher VAT etc. whilst they want the tuition fees scrapped?

Of course they do! (by "they" I do not mean all students; I mean the protesting ones. Not the sensible ones on here such as chapeltom and jimmyowl1992)

That's hardly fair.

The protesters don't appear to understand the meaning of the word!

Council budgets and other local service budgets are being cut everywhere, meaning that people in the supply chains will suffer.

As long as it's someone else and not them, it's okay!:roll:

To demand some form of financial immunity against the credit crunch whilst committing to a large number of years of not paying taxes from employment sees rather contradictory.

Agreed.

Time and again we've heard the higher than average gradute earnings used as a defence for the late start into paying taxes, but now when people point to higher than average graduate earnings as a reason to why they can repay tuition fees, that's suddenly not fair. With the failsafes in place that mean you don't always have to pay the loan straight back it isn't as awful as some make out.

Indeed. They are going on about how terrible it is that the repayments will be such a huge chunk of their wages. Only if they are going to be earning over £21,000 will anything leave their wages to repay the debt. So they are basically insulting anyone who is earning £21,000 or less.

Crikey, I have earnings which I can borrow money against, versus the potential future income of a graduate, but I can't get terms that say 'don't pay back if you can't afford it' or an interest rate anything like as low as the student loan rates.

But they believe they are entitled to it. You are not. And nothing, it seems, can change their narrow view.

People should look around and reality check. If you look at Britain, Ireland, Greece, Portugal and Spain, its clear we were living financial lies - things need to change, and this is one of them!

Reality? Ha! They don't know what reality is!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11870363

"I come from a very poor background. My mum's very, very proud of me - if they raise tuition fees I may not be able to go to university," said Fatima.


"I know I don't have to pay for the fees up front but with all that interest I just don't know that I would ever be able to pay them back."

Where on earth do you start?!

You may not ever pay them back. And that's why it's such a good deal, Fatima. If you end up in a £21,000/year job you will not repay a single penny. This is better than the existing system where you would be paying £45/month on that salary.

Anyone who is complaining at repaying the costs is clearly expecting to earn more than £21,000/month, and therefore the fact they are moaning so much that they don't have enough money to live on, when they have to give a few quid each month on earnings over that amount, is a huge insult to those of us on £21,000 or less. They are basically saying "Look, we're going to be on a big wage, say, £30,000+ a year, and we don't want a few hundred quid of that to go to taxpayers, we want to keep it all" do they not realise how insulting that is to the rest of us who do not get a huge big fat cat wage?!

 

[jon0844]

Unfortunately the lib dems went around university campuses/accommodation with 'cut tuition fees' being their main policy. In some seats I bet student votes were the decider.
They deserve all they get.

You do know that the Lib Dems came third don't you? Thus they are not in a position to decide Government policy, only have a say in it as part of a coalition.

If they'd gained power outright, do you think they would have still backtracked? And, as I believe, nobody knew quite how bankrupt we nearly were, would they have been able to do this?

In any case, even with my ropey memory of doing maths, the numbers suggest students are better off under this new system as they won't pay back anything so early - and this means 'poor' people can go to a top University without any risk. Once they're earning good money, they surely won't have a problem with paying back £30, £40, £50 a month - given their education got them that job that they might not have been able to get otherwise.

I will admit to not fully understanding how the system works in the USA, but my understanding is that poor people have little chance of getting such an education without a scholarship.

 

[142094]

Person A comes from a poor family, gets tuition fee loan and maintenance loan to pay for their studies. Debt is around £20k after the 3 year course. Person B comes from a rich family, no loans to pay off and everything paid for. Debt is £0 after the three year course. Both get similar degrees with similar job prospects. Of course person A pays back their debt with the interest accrued, person B has a lot more money left over at the end of the month due to no debts. Question is, do you see this as being fair?

In an ideal world university should be means tested at entry - families who can afford to pay fees pay more, those who cannot afford to pay get support. This seems fair to me.

 

[jon0844]

Do all rich families pay for everything? I know a lot of people who have rich parents/family and have to pay their own way. Not everyone is given everything they want.

Anyone who borrows money pays interest. Poor people regularly take out credit and get totally shafted. Going to University gives you the chance to no longer be poor (and it's probably interesting to see what people regard as being poor, or on the poverty line, when I'd say it was struggling to feed yourself and others would say it is about not enjoying a life with material goods and services) - and ultimately be able to provide a better life to your children, who can then go on and study hard and.. hey, perhaps become the very rich people that so many people are jealous of.

Again, not everyone is born rich or inherits money. Some actually work for it. They probably started out 'poor' too. Doesn't this prove that EVERYONE has the same opportunities, if they choose to take them?

 

[Ferret]

So, how come being English is such a disadvantage then when it comes to tuition fees? Welsh students and Scottish students must be howling with laughter...

 

[jon0844]

Because they have chosen to do things differently?

The students howling with laughter most are probably those who sought to study in mainland Europe instead, with many universities doing everything in English (just in case they don't fancy learning another language). I am sure they will enjoy student life more than students going to some of our more suspect universities in the UK.

(And, do we know as fact that every university is going to charge the full £9,000?)

 

[Geezertronic]

Personally I think its good to see the students protesting, and the gov getting some stick. The damage hasn't really been excessive imo, apart from a few incidents, fire extinguisher, buses(in use) getting attacked etc.

Also there seemed to be quite a few police vans, and horse boxes in Manchester City Centre today. Were they expecting trouble too?

Whilst they have a right to protest, what a pathetic comment to make regarding the damage. There's no difference between these idiots and the idiots who damage bus shelters and cause other forms of criminal damage. They are the ones who deserve everything they get and a nice criminal record should do their job prospects no end of harm with any luck

 

[Ferret]

Whilst they have a right to protest, what a pathetic comment to make regarding the damage. There's no difference between these idiots and the idiots who damage bus shelters and cause other forms of criminal damage. They are the ones who deserve everything they get and a nice criminal record should do their job prospects no end of harm with any luck

Well said Geezertronic. Anyone condoning such violence is beneath contempt quite frankly.

 

[Mojo]

Person A comes from a poor family, gets tuition fee loan and maintenance loan to pay for their studies. Debt is around £20k after the 3 year course. Person B comes from a rich family, no loans to pay off and everything paid for. Debt is £0 after the three year course. Both get similar degrees with similar job prospects. Of course person A pays back their debt with the interest accrued, person B has a lot more money left over at the end of the month due to no debts. Question is, do you see this as being fair?

Or alternatively, Person A is very intelligent and soon makes his way up the career ladder and becomes a high-flying executive on £300,000 per annum whilst Person B decides they want to help others and becomes a teacher on a tenth of the salary. Person A gets huge amounts of grants and assistance because only one person lives in the house and they don't earn much, and they have minimal debts, whereas Person B comes from a 2-parent household in a suburban street; they cannot afford to offer much support but the system deems them rich enough to not get any money. Still fair?

 

[jon0844]

I wondered about the people who invaded Lewisham council yesterday and started to tear up the place, in protest of the £35m cuts being planned.

What will they think now the council has to make £35m of cuts PLUS the damage caused by a bunch of .. idiots (better not use any harsh language in here).

 

[37401]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822

(watch the video)

Surely these rioters are not going to be able to get a job paying more than £21,000 per year (who is going to employ people who act like that?), so they will never repay their loans anyway!

The loans are only repaid on earnings above £21,000. (e.g. someone earning £22,000 pays a proportion of the £1000 above that figure toward their loan).

I think that they should be repaying the huge cost of educating them. It will be many years before they repay and if they don't earn a good wage they never will repay it, so what are they rioting for? Ludicrous.

Bloody yoof of today, Saw the video on the news why arnt the Public Order police rolling out the big guns, Dogs, Horses the proper riot shields, Might put them off having a go at them then as trust me you dont wanna be there when they charge at you, and I was only doing it for training

Its not protesting anymore its rioting, come on Public Order Police, step up your game, just because they arnt your usual middle aged football hooligan doesnt mean he/she wont be as violent

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I know why people are demonstrating, but I don't know what they are hoping to achieve from how they're going about, excluding the thuggish miority. Even the non-violent protests are breaching security and other kinds of disorder.

The non-violent protests don't break any kind of laws. Or would you support removing the right to protest from our citizens?

 

[scotsman]

So, how come being English is such a disadvantage then when it comes to tuition fees? Welsh students and Scottish students must be howling with laughter...

I'm going to Uni in a few years and I'm not too worried, the SNP will be voted out next year and Labour will return to power and ensure this insanity doesn't spread. And my friends at Uni are not 'howling with laughter' at all, they're standing in solidarity with the English students; many of them have travelled across the country to join protests against the proposals.

 

[37401]

Those protesters didn't look particularly violent to me (going on that video).

Depends how you rate violence, I saw a clip on the news where they were attacking a police van, to me if I was an officer at that scene I would detain and arrest those that were punching the police van and pulling the door open

Its incite to violence, those doing that clearly aren't all there and they just want to hit something and the way people behave can be funny sometimes, if person A starts kicking and punching a police van person B, C and D could get a buzz off it and most teenagers do get a buzz off most things so then that one person causing a problem becomes a number of people causing problems

What if they got the officer out of the van and he got dragged into the crowds?

Violence doesnt always mean someone getting a punch in the face

(First knowlegeable post from me eh? )

 

[ainsworth74]

Depends how you rate violence, I saw a clip on the news where they were attacking a police van

But that's not the clip I was commenting on

In regards to the police van then I don't have qualms with the police response as the crowd were obviously being violent.

 

[Geezertronic]

Kudos to the students in Birmingham for at least keeping the peace

Police said it "couldn't have been more different from the violent clashes seen recently in London".

They thanked the students for their controlled, sensible manner.

 

[LE Greys]

I'm going to Uni in a few years and I'm not too worried, the SNP will be voted out next year and Labour will return to power and ensure this insanity doesn't spread. And my friends at Uni are not 'howling with laughter' at all, they're standing in solidarity with the English students; many of them have travelled across the country to join protests against the proposals.

Fifty people came down from Aberdeen on an overnight coach for the first protest, then travelled back overnight and went straight back to lectures/teaching the next morning.

 

[Ferret]

Fifty people came down from Aberdeen on an overnight coach for the first protest, then travelled back overnight and went straight back to lectures/teaching the next morning.

Well, fair play to them for that. All too easy to stand back saying 'not my problem guv'.

 

[scotsman]

Well, fair play to them for that. All to easy and stand back saying 'not my problem guv'.

That's kind of the point of solidarty.....:roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm afraid that my opinion of the police's ability to control protests has gone right down after watching a program following Greater Manchester Police's Public Order Unit. Some of them (the tiny majority) were thugs who thought themselves to be above the law. One officer even said he could use whatever force he liked, which simply isn't true. Another officer was heard to say "take your hand off my arm or I'll break your f*****g nose".

However, back to the topic in hand. I am glad to see students in Scotland supporting the protests.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Surely with the NHS losing having to cut down on wards etc, and many other sectors having budgets slashed, we should all have to contribute more/make changes to the way we do things. Looks like students want everyone else but them to face the cuts...