Rights in severe disruption

[AdamWW]

I have a question which is pertinent to the disruption across the network today (but fortunately not to me personally).

Can anyone tell me what a passenger's rights are when using the return half of a flexible ticket when severe disruption materialises?

At what point is it permissable to return to the start of the (return) journey to try again the next day?
Do you have to wait until told it will be impossible to reach your destination, or if faced an uncertain onwards journey (e.g. a vague suggestion of buses at some point and no guarantees how connections at the other end would go) can you unilaterally decide to abandon the journey?
And if so, do you have a right to use the ticket again when things have been sorted out, or do you need to buy a new single ticket and apply for a refund for the original one?

 

[Watershed]

As soon as the train you are intending to take is cancelled, delayed, rescheduled, or your reservation won't be honoured, you are entitled to a full refund under condition 30.1 of the NRCoT. The provisions for this allow you to return to your origin and still receive the full refund.

The NRCoT doesn't establish any minimum threshold for what counts as "delayed"; given that station displays tend to show an "expected" time for any train that's 2+ minutes late, and that many tight connections might be broken by a delay of that magnitude, I'd say that counts as "delayed".

There is no requirement to be advised not to travel or similar for this right to kick in.

Condition 28.3 reiterates the PRO right to have your ticket redated to another date of your convenience free of charge if there is an anticipated delay in arrival of more than 60 minutes. It doesn't explicitly say that you can return to your origin as well as having your ticket redated, but seeing as severe disruption might otherwise require you to stay overnight at the place you're stranded, it would seem ludicrous for a TOC to suggest they'd rather incur the cost of this rather than let you try again another day.

That being said, unfortunately I'm not aware of many retailers that have implemented any automated processes for redating your ticket under condition 28.3. The condition does say that you should contact the relevant TOC but you can be almost certain they'd just refer you back to the retailer, deeming this to be a retailer-related matter. So this may be a right that is easier to exercise in theory than in practice.

 

[tomoufc]

As soon as the train you are intending to take is cancelled, delayed, rescheduled, or your reservation won't be honoured, you are entitled to a full refund under condition 30.1 of the NRCoT. The provisions for this allow you to return to your origin and still receive the full refund.

The NRCoT doesn't establish any minimum threshold for what counts as "delayed"; given that station displays tend to show an "expected" time for any train that's 2+ minutes late, and that many tight connections might be broken by a delay of that magnitude, I'd say that counts as "delayed".

There is no requirement to be advised not to travel or similar for this right to kick in.

Condition 28.3 reiterates the PRO right to have your ticket redated to another date of your convenience free of charge if there is an anticipated delay in arrival of more than 60 minutes. It doesn't explicitly say that you can return to your origin as well as having your ticket redated, but seeing as severe disruption might otherwise require you to stay overnight at the place you're stranded, it would seem ludicrous for a TOC to suggest they'd rather incur the cost of this rather than let you try again another day.

That being said, unfortunately I'm not aware of many retailers that have implemented any automated processes for redating your ticket under condition 28.3. The condition does say that you should contact the relevant TOC but you can be almost certain they'd just refer you back to the retailer, deeming this to be a retailer-related matter. So this may be a right that is easier to exercise in theory than in practice.

This is interesting.

If, for example, I held an advance ticket that I no longer required, would it be worth checking to see if the service ran, for example, 15 minutes late, then subsequently claiming a refund on the basis that I decided not to travel. Perhaps a bit dishonest, but against the rules?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is interesting.

If, for example, I held an advance ticket that I no longer required, would it be worth checking to see if the service ran, for example, 15 minutes late, then subsequently claiming a refund on the basis that I decided not to travel. Perhaps a bit dishonest, but against the rules?

Dishonest but unenforceable.

 

[tomoufc]

Dishonest but unenforceable.

Feels a bit like the hand ball rule in football - was there intent?

 

[AdamWW]

Condition 28.3 reiterates the PRO right to have your ticket redated to another date of your convenience free of charge if there is an anticipated delay in arrival of more than 60 minutes. It doesn't explicitly say that you can return to your origin as well as having your ticket redated, but seeing as severe disruption might otherwise require you to stay overnight at the place you're stranded, it would seem ludicrous for a TOC to suggest they'd rather incur the cost of this rather than let you try again another day.

Thanks.

So the industry hasn't chosen to take a clear position on this then.

I'm a bit surprised because it can't be that an unusual circumstance.

 

[infobleep]

This is what South Qestern Railway say this evening:

If you are travelling to stations West and South of Basingstoke and have not yet started your journey, we advise you not to travel. Tickets dated for today (04 January) on SWR services will be valid for travel tomorrow on SWR services only (05 January).

If you are currently travelling, your journey is likely to take considerably longer than normal and there is limited rail replacement transport available.

If you have an advanced ticket dated for today (04 January), you can travel on an earlier service than is shown on your ticket, at no extra cost to yourself.

You can arrange your own taxis to complete your journey and claim this back from our Customer Services Team. To claim a refund, you will need:

• Full contact details.
• The time and date of your journey.
• The stations you travelled to and from.
• A description of the series of events that took place.
• Copies of your train tickets and taxi receipt.

Please email these details to customerrelations@swrailway.com or write to: Freepost SWR CUSTOMER RELATIONS
They also go on to say.

Incident: SWR Weather | National Rail

Severe weather to affect South Western Railway services. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

So if someone hadn't started their journey, could they travel tomorrow if it involved more than SWR? I would have thought perhaps yes but it sounds like nobif you read the above.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I have a similar query as my sister was meant to be travelling from Edinburgh to Manchester this evening on a TPE service but it was cancelled and was the last one of the night. I'm assuming she bought a ticket for that specific service due to the cost so if she gets a refund for the cancelled train and buys a standard single tomorrow it's likely to cost her a lot more money for something that wasn't her fault. Is there any mechanism in place that they'd have to accept her ticket for the cancelled train on a morning service?

 

[Watershed]

This is interesting.

If, for example, I held an advance ticket that I no longer required, would it be worth checking to see if the service ran, for example, 15 minutes late, then subsequently claiming a refund on the basis that I decided not to travel. Perhaps a bit dishonest, but against the rules?

There's nothing in the rules against this, and it's difficult to see how anyone could accuse you of doing anything wrong when you are merely taking advantage of your contractual rights.

Note that you can change Advance tickets to a different date or time up to the first train's booked departure time subject to payment of the difference in fare plus an admin fee of up to £10, so if you do still have plans to make the same journey at another time, this may be worthwhile.

I have a similar query as my sister was meant to be travelling from Edinburgh to Manchester this evening on a TPE service but it was cancelled and was the last one of the night. I'm assuming she bought a ticket for that specific service due to the cost so if she gets a refund for the cancelled train and buys a standard single tomorrow it's likely to cost her a lot more money for something that wasn't her fault. Is there any mechanism in place that they'd have to accept her ticket for the cancelled train on a morning service?

She should only refund her existing ticket if she doesn't intend to make the journey at all anymore.

If she wants to instead travel on the first TPE train of the day tomorrow, her ticket is automatically valid - without needing to do anything - by virtue of the Advance ticket terms and conditions.

If she wants to travel on a different train or a different date altogether then she is entitled to have her ticket reissued free of charge to an alternative date of her convenience under condition 28.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[JohnMcL7]

She should only refund her existing ticket if she doesn't intend to make the journey at all anymore.

If she wants to instead travel on the first TPE train of the day tomorrow, her ticket is automatically valid - without needing to do anything - by virtue of the Advance ticket terms and conditions.

If she wants to travel on a different train or a different date altogether then she is entitled to have her ticket reissued free of charge to an alternative date of her convenience under condition 28.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

Thanks for the information, it's really helpful to know the best approach to take. I'm not sure what she's done exactly but she's spoken to someone at the station and sorted the ticket for tomorrow so it sounds like she's followed your last option there.

 

[Haywain]

Note that you can change Advance tickets to a different date or time up to the first train's booked departure time

For clarity, this is the departure time of the first reserved train, which may not be the first train on the itinerary as unreserved trains are not considered 'booked'. I doubt websites take that into account though.

 

[Watershed]

For clarity, this is the departure time of the first reserved train, which may not be the first train on the itinerary as unreserved trains are not considered 'booked'. I doubt websites take that into account though.

That's true but I don't think there are any retailers that apply the rule this way. More and more trains are becoming reservable in any event, so there are now only few connecting services on which you wouldn't be 'booked' (even if you only have a counted place reservation).

 

[Haywain]

I don't think there are any retailers that apply the rule this way.

Ticket offices should though.

 

[800Travel]

As soon as the train you are intending to take is cancelled, delayed, rescheduled, or your reservation won't be honoured, you are entitled to a full refund under condition 30.1 of the NRCoT. The provisions for this allow you to return to your origin and still receive the full refund.

The NRCoT doesn't establish any minimum threshold for what counts as "delayed"; given that station displays tend to show an "expected" time for any train that's 2+ minutes late, and that many tight connections might be broken by a delay of that magnitude, I'd say that counts as "delayed".

There is no requirement to be advised not to travel or similar for this right to kick in.

Condition 28.3 reiterates the PRO right to have your ticket redated to another date of your convenience free of charge if there is an anticipated delay in arrival of more than 60 minutes. It doesn't explicitly say that you can return to your origin as well as having your ticket redated, but seeing as severe disruption might otherwise require you to stay overnight at the place you're stranded, it would seem ludicrous for a TOC to suggest they'd rather incur the cost of this rather than let you try again another day.

That being said, unfortunately I'm not aware of many retailers that have implemented any automated processes for redating your ticket under condition 28.3. The condition does say that you should contact the relevant TOC but you can be almost certain they'd just refer you back to the retailer, deeming this to be a retailer-related matter. So this may be a right that is easier to exercise in theory than in practice.

Does NRCoT 30.1 apply to all ticket types including off peak day single please, or just advance tickets? I.e. for the off peak day single, other than having a seat reservation for a service or an itinerary, you cannot really prove you intended to travel on a specific service. Unless there is no burden of proof on the consumer.

 

[ainsworth74]

Does NRCoT 30.1 apply to all ticket types including off peak day single please, or just advance tickets? I.e. for the off peak day single, other than having a seat reservation for a service or an itinerary, you cannot really prove you intended to travel on a specific service. Unless there is no burden of proof on the consumer.

It applies to all ticket types, even season tickets (as I have gotten a pro-rata refund for a day I couldn't travel due to disruption). The system with flexible tickets works on the honour basis so the consumer has no requirement to prove that they intended to travel on a certain service. Though occasionally they will look for patterns from people who make such claims frequently. For instance someone whose claims always seem to be for the only train that day that was cancelled on the route in question could start to raise some question marks as to whether their requests were legitimate or not.

 

[island]

Ticket offices should though.

You are of course correct but there are lots of things that the railway should do and it doesn't

 

[trei2k]

She should only refund her existing ticket if she doesn't intend to make the journey at all anymore.

If she wants to instead travel on the first TPE train of the day tomorrow, her ticket is automatically valid - without needing to do anything - by virtue of the Advance ticket terms and conditions.

If she wants to travel on a different train or a different date altogether then she is entitled to have her ticket reissued free of charge to an alternative date of her convenience under condition 28.3 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

This is something that has been bouncing around my head in the past and this reply has reminded me of it.

Let's assume I hold an advance ticket for a service at say 22:00. It is cancelled, I get a hotel and the first train of the day is at 04:30 (or something very early).

Since it is the first train of the day, most operators (in my eyes) would view it as the next available service and would default to that option. How realistically could a passenger make the arrangements under 28.3? Would it be a situation of buying another ticket and seeking a refund?

Just for reference for others, the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

28.3 Where your train is likely to be delayed for more than 60 minutes, you may use your Ticket to make your journey at a later date subject to comparable restrictions on your Ticket. Please refer to your Train Company’s website or contact them directly for details on how to obtain a replacement Ticket.

LATER EDIT: Just for clarity, I missed out the important point of "how could passenger make arrangements to take a later service under 28.3." (Sorry!)

 

[MrJeeves]

How realistically could a passenger make the arrangements under 28.3? Would it be a situation of buying another ticket and seeking a refund?

Probably, yes.

 

[trei2k]

Probably, yes.

I always feel for those that might not be in the position with enough credit/available funds to do something like this.

 

[156421]

This is something that has been bouncing around my head in the past and this reply has reminded me of it.

Let's assume I hold an advance ticket for a service at say 22:00. It is cancelled, I get a hotel and the first train of the day is at 04:30 (or something very early).

Since it is the first train of the day, most operators (in my eyes) would view it as the next available service and would default to that option. How realistically could a passenger make the arrangements under 28.3? Would it be a situation of buying another ticket and seeking a refund?

Just for reference for others, the National Rail Conditions of Travel:



LATER EDIT: Just for clarity, I missed out the important point of "how could passenger make arrangements to take a later service under 28.3." (Sorry!)

Another issue with that, which remains unanswered, would be if the ticket was off peak, and the first train of the morning was during the peak hours.

There is related thread here... Validity of off-peak ticket for next day travel due to "do not travel" warning (link to thread pertaining to next day travel after disruption in the evening).