Ribblehead Viaduct

[rdlover777]

hello,

this a simple question and may even be a stupid one but why is the Ribblehead Viaduct now single track? i've honestly thought it was double track like the rest of the line

thanks
Daniel~

 

[snowball]

It was reduced to single track years ago to reduce stresses on the structure as an alternative to spending a bomb on upgrading it (or closing the line).

 

[rdlover777]

It was reduced to single track years ago to reduce stresses on the structure as an alternative to spending a bomb on upgrading it (or closing the line).

ah, i understand

 

[leedslad82]

You all been watching jericho on itv1 on a Thursday. Drama based on the building of ribble head

 

[deltic08]

hello,

this a simple question and may even be a stupid one but why is the Ribblehead Viaduct now single track? i've honestly thought it was double track like the rest of the line

thanks
Daniel~

The poor condition of Ribblehead viaduct in particular and the cost of replacement was the reason the Settle-Carlisle line was put up for closure by BR in 1980. The line over the viaduct was singled for two reasons.

To take the weight off the outside of the viaduct and to prevent the weight of two trains on the viaduct at the same time. This bought a little extra time until the closure procedure could proceed.

The reason for the poor condition was neglect of regular maintenance particularly the waterproof membrane and drainage for probably 30 years. Water was allowed to get into the columns and with time winters caused this water to freeze, expand and eventually cause cracking of individual stones above or below a joint and spalling. This was very noticeable underneath each arch where the stone edges, or voussoir, became detached from the brick arch.

BR claimed replacement of this viaduct alone would be £6m, quite a lot in 1980, and was not economically worthwhile for the traffic on offer. Typical. They have been made to eat their words as without this line W&ECMLs could not have coped with all the coal trains from Hunterston to Yorkshire and East Midlands route this way from Carlisle.

BR local manager Ron Cotton was appointed to close the line. He started promoting the line with cheap day tickets for a couple of £s. Many last chance railtours ran over the route and Cumbria County Council sponsored a local service stopping at stations closed in 1972? assisted by the Committee formed in 1980 by just two people and a dog called Ruswarp, to save the line.

The line was reprieved by Thatcher of all people because of public pressure in 1988.

Ribblehead viaduct was still a problem. It has 23 piers including 3 king piers numbers 6,12,and 18 and 24 arches.

BR Civil Engineer, Tony Freschini, persuaded BR to let him repair one arch and one pier to estimate costs for making the whole structure fit for purpose.

After this work was completed it was estimated it would cost between £2.75 and £3.25m to fully restore the viaduct instead of £6m for a replacement allowing for any unknowns.

Between 1988 and 1992 the following work was carried out with the bulk of work being done in 1990/91.

1. 3000 tonnes of ballast removed of which 500 tonnes reused.
2. 2500 tonnes of new ballast.
3. 450 yards of track removed and long welded replaced.
4. 2647 square yards of deck waterproofed.
5. 4686 holes drilled of over a yard long each and filled with 1420 tonnes of grout.
6. 1200 holes drilled of at least 3 yards length for stainless steel rock anchors.
7. 1000 yards of new downpipes
8. 289 masonry blocks replaced.
9. Replacement of 35 defective voussoirs.
10.Large areas of pointing.
11.150,000 feet of scaffolding, enough for 6 piers and 4 arches.

Despite all this work, the speed limit is still 30mph over the viaduct because of slow speed turnouts and single track retained. I have heard that when the turnouts and rail are due for replacement it will be doubled again.

This was sufficient to last 25 years which is about now.

 

[QueensCurve]

The poor condition of Ribblehead viaduct in particular and the cost of replacement was the reason the Settle-Carlisle line was put up for closure by BR in 1980. The line over the viaduct was singled for two reasons....

Thank you for an excellent description of the history of the closure proposal and it's rejection. Two things to add:-

First the Minister who claimed later in his impossibly prolific TV Series to have saved the line is Michael Portillo. A [then covert] rail enthusiast. I doubt he made it on his own, but ridership had increased massively from since notice of closure had been published. The threat of closure was in place from the BR Business case for the Weaver to Glasgow Electrification.

Second, and perhaps more interestingly, was the saga of the square holes found in the waterproof membrane directly above the centre of each of the vidaduct's piers. These were discovered when the ballast was removed for the viaduct's refurbishment and probably contributed to the deterioration of the structure. I recall that some comment at the time implied foul play, but my understanding is that they were where the membrane was placed around temporary wooden uprights that had been left in place when the viaduct was built. The wood had rotted over time allowing water to pour in.

 

[backontrack]

Also, the price of repairs circulated by BR was actually massively inflated. It was their tactic - run down the service, drive away passengers and then claim it is underused, before shutting it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

BR local manager Ron Cotton was appointed to close the line. He started promoting the line with cheap day tickets for a couple of £s. Many last chance railtours ran over the route and Cumbria County Council sponsored a local service stopping at stations closed in 1972? assisted by the Committee formed in 1980 by just two people and a dog called Ruswarp, to save the line.

The stations had closed in 1970 although from memory they had all been unstaffed in 1967 (I think!). It's also worth noting that not all the stations that closed in 1970 reopened although off hand I can't remember the names of those that didn't.

For those that are unaware Ruswarp was a very brave dog and remained faithful to his master after he died whilst out walking in the hills. Ruswarp stood guard over his master for several weeks and was close to starvation (in not the best of weather) until he was found and nursed back to health. In the end he survived just long enough to attend his master's funeral. All of this is from my memory and I'm sure deltic08 will help me out if I've missed something For those of you who are interested there is a statue of Ruswarp at Garsdale station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd heard/read somewhere (though as a disclaimer I have no idea of the veracity of this) that an unforseen consequence of the singling of the line over the viaduct is the shortening of the assumed lifespan of the repairs mentioned upthread. This is due to the viaduct being designed to carry two parallel tracks rather than one central track.

 

[deltic08]

Thank you for an excellent description of the history of the closure proposal and it's rejection. Two things to add:-

First the Minister who claimed later in his impossibly prolific TV Series to have saved the line is Michael Portillo. A [then covert] rail enthusiast. I doubt he made it on his own, but ridership had increased massively from since notice of closure had been published. The threat of closure was in place from the BR Business case for the Weaver to Glasgow Electrification.

Second, and perhaps more interestingly, was the saga of the square holes found in the waterproof membrane directly above the centre of each of the vidaduct's piers. These were discovered when the ballast was removed for the viaduct's refurbishment and probably contributed to the deterioration of the structure. I recall that some comment at the time implied foul play, but my understanding is that they were where the membrane was placed around temporary wooden uprights that had been left in place when the viaduct was built. The wood had rotted over time allowing water to pour in.

Thank you. It is nice to be praised for once instead of continually criticised for my promotion of railways by the hyenas.

I don't think Portillo would have succeeded on his own. Literally tens of thousands supported keeping the line open by objecting at the TUCC Hearings. This was all helped by the Chairman of the Yorkshire and NE TUCC, James Towler, who chaired the hearings being a rail enthusiast and sympathetic lover of the Settle-Carlisle.

I hadn't heard of the square hole problem in the waterproof membrane. I will ask Tony Freschini when I next speak to him. Not very frequently since his cousin moved away from my road a few years back.

 

[theblackwatch]

I don't think Portillo would have succeeded on his own. Literally tens of thousands supported keeping the line open by objecting at the TUCC Hearings. This was all helped by the Chairman of the Yorkshire and NE TUCC, James Towler, who chaired the hearings being a rail enthusiast and sympathetic lover of the Settle-Carlisle.

James Towler wrote a book, 'The Battle for the Settle & Carlisle', published by Platform 5 in 1990, which I would recommend for anyone interested. Looking online, there seem to be plenty of second hand copies available - the ISBN is 1872524079.

 

[backontrack]

Thank you. It is nice to be praised for once instead of continually criticised for my promotion of railways by the hyenas.

I don't think Portillo would have succeeded on his own. Literally tens of thousands supported keeping the line open by objecting at the TUCC Hearings. This was all helped by the Chairman of the Yorkshire and NE TUCC, James Towler, who chaired the hearings being a rail enthusiast and sympathetic lover of the Settle-Carlisle.

I hadn't heard of the square hole problem in the waterproof membrane. I will ask Tony Freschini when I next speak to him. Not very frequently since his cousin moved away from my road a few years back.

Michael Palin also campaigned for the line to stay open, I think.

 

[deltic08]

The stations had closed in 1970 although from memory they had all been unstaffed in 1967 (I think!). It's also worth noting that not all the stations that closed in 1970 reopened although off hand I can't remember the names of those that didn't.

For those that are unaware Ruswarp was a very brave dog and remained faithful to his master after he died whilst out walking in the hills. Ruswarp stood guard over his master for several weeks and was close to starvation (in not the best of weather) until he was found and nursed back to health. In the end he survived just long enough to attend his master's funeral. All of this is from my memory and I'm sure deltic08 will help me out if I've missed something For those of you who are interested there is a statue of Ruswarp at Garsdale station.

Since posting I looked at my 1972 timetable and local stations were not in it, only Settle and Appleby, so it must have been 1970 the year I started at Leeds University Med School. I should have known better as I renewed my acquaintance with the S&C that year after a break of 5 five years and only the Nottingham-Glasgows were running.

Friends Graham Nuttall or David Burton or both, discovered BR paperwork relating to closure of the S&C in a paper recycling facility in the Colne/Burnley area. Both are/were unassuming characters but were so incensed by this news, started a campaign group in 1980 that blossomed into the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle eventually gaining 5,000 members by the time of the hearings in 1983?

In the 1989/90 winter Graham, whilst hill walking in Central Wales with his Border Collie Ruswarp, must have fallen and was tragically fatally injured not being found for about three months. As has been mentioned already Ruswarp stayed with Graham until he was found. This has been likened to Greyfriars Bobby in Edinburgh who lived in the churchyard where his master was buried.

If you really want a list of stations closed in 1970 and not reopened in the 1980s, they were all between Appleby and Carlisle. They were Little Salkeld, Culgaith, Newbiggin, and Long Marton.

I wonder if an Appleby-Carlisle commuter service would be viable to-day, 30 years on, if all stations had reopened then? Just one service an hour in the morning and evening peak is insufficient to build footfall. The same is true of the Chathill-Newcastle commuter service being only one in and one out of Newcastle. Very little growth but I am not surprised. If you miss your one and only train home from work, what do you do if you parked your car other than Morpeth and Alnmouth?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

James Towler wrote a book, 'The Battle for the Settle & Carlisle', published by Platform 5 in 1990, which I would recommend for anyone interested. Looking online, there seem to be plenty of second hand copies available - the ISBN is 1872524079.

Yes and a very good read too. James could have just accepted Government spin but he questioned the small print. He was punished for going against Ministers by being kicked off the TUCC at the next round of appointments after the S&C was reprieved under David Mitchells reign at the DfT but in this book it states it was Paul Channon.

Very sadly James died prematurely, as far as the railway movement was concerned, not long after his book was published in his mid 60s.

 

[backontrack]

If you really want a list of stations closed in 1970 and not reopened in the 1980s, they were all between Appleby and Carlisle. They were Little Salkeld, Culgaith, Newbiggin, and Long Marton.

Little Salkeld was between Lazonby & Kirkoswald and Langwathby; the rest were between Langwathby and Appleby.

The other closed stations on the line were all shut before 1970. There were Scotby (there was another stop called Scotby on the Tyne Valley Line that was open for longer), Cumwhinton and Cotehil between Carlisle and Armathwaite, and Ormside and Crosby Garrett between Appleby and Kirkby Stephen. Scotby (S&C) closed in 1942; the rest all appear to have closed in the 1950s, as did Scotby (Tyne Valley).

 

[70014IronDuke]

Since posting I looked at my 1972 timetable and local stations were not in it, only Settle and Appleby, so it must have been 1970

I think it was May 1970, start of the summer timetable. I was there on the last day, a Saturday, as there was no Sunday service, IIRC.

 

[Kettledrum]

Thank you for an excellent description of the history of the closure proposal and it's rejection. Two things to add:-

First the Minister who claimed later in his impossibly prolific TV Series to have saved the line is Michael Portillo. A [then covert] rail enthusiast. I doubt he made it on his own, but ridership had increased massively from since notice of closure had been published.

Over the years, there have been some extremely bad strategic rail decisions taken by government ministers. If only some of the other government transport Ministers over the years had made the difference that Portillo did. We probably didn't realise it at the time though.

 

[deltic08]

I think it was May 1970, start of the summer timetable. I was there on the last day, a Saturday, as there was no Sunday service, IIRC.

Had I been there I would have remembered the date better but I was all the way down in Filton, Bristol, working on the Concorde 002 project until September 1970 when I moved to Leeds. I would have been on the last service had I been local. I was on the reopening service the day after the civic service ran but still can't remember the date without looking it up. A nice green Derby Lightweight 108 complete with cream whiskers painted I think just for the occasion. Loads of photos though.

 

[HowardGWR]

I'd heard/read somewhere (though as a disclaimer I have no idea of the veracity of this) that an unforseen consequence of the singling of the line over the viaduct is the shortening of the assumed lifespan of the repairs mentioned upthread. This is due to the viaduct being designed to carry two parallel tracks rather than one central track.

It would have been dodgy if they had not been parallel!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It would have been dodgy if they had not been parallel!

Indeed it would!

What I'd heard/read was something to do with how the viaduct (and indeed most stone/brick viaducts) was designed to bear the load of trains passing over it (which has me wondering if other structures are in similar situations), in many cases the remaining line hasn't been slewed over to the centre (Lockwood and Denby Dale for example). It could have all been wibble though.

 

[Railsigns]

It would have been dodgy if they had not been parallel!

Since the viaduct is curved, strictly speaking the tracks would have been concentric rather than parallel.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed it would!

What I'd heard/read was something to do with how the viaduct (and indeed most stone/brick viaducts) was designed to bear the load of trains passing over it (which has me wondering if other structures are in similar situations), in many cases the remaining line hasn't been slewed over to the centre (Lockwood and Denby Dale for example). It could have all been wibble though.

If true, it is an interesting question. There must be hundreds of viaducts around the country which have had tracks slewn away from their original position.

Hopefully the Victorians tendency to over-engineer things will come to the fore!

 

[snowball]

Since the viaduct is curved, strictly speaking the tracks would have been concentric rather than parallel.

Mathematics recognises the concept of parallel curves, of which parallel lines are one example and concentric circles are another.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_curve

 

[Joseph_Locke]

If true, it is an interesting question. There must be hundreds of viaducts around the country which have had tracks slewn away from their original position.

Hopefully the Victorians tendency to over-engineer things will come to the fore!

(The past tense of "slew" is "slewed".)

The last thing the S&C was is over engineered - it was built in a hurry, cheaply and out of spite and spite alone.

Having been at work in the office next door (literally) when the 1990/1/2 remedial works were going on, IIRC part of the problem is that whilst the outside of the viaduct is decent masonry, the inside is loose rubble fill, which has settled and expanded.

 

[najaB]

The last thing the S&C was is over engineered - it was built in a hurry, cheaply and out of spite and spite alone.

I don't know the history, but your description of it being built out of spite is intriguing - what's the story if you don't mind explaining?

 

[yorksrob]

(The past tense of "slew" is "slewed".)

The last thing the S&C was is over engineered - it was built in a hurry, cheaply and out of spite and spite alone.

Having been at work in the office next door (literally) when the 1990/1/2 remedial works were going on, IIRC part of the problem is that whilst the outside of the viaduct is decent masonry, the inside is loose rubble fill, which has settled and expanded.

Including an unfortunate horse, as I recall reading!

I wasn't aware that the route was built out of spite, rather desperation that the LNWR (I assume these owned the WCML at the time) were causing operational problems North of Ingleborough to the MR.

Either way, I can see how such a 'distress purchase' might have been built to a lesser spec.

I was thinking particularly of the elevated approaches to cities where tracks seem to change position regularly over the decades.

 

[snowball]

(The past tense of "slew" is "slewed".)

More relevant to the context in which yorksrob was using it, the past participle of "slew" is also "slewed".

 

[yorksrob]

More relevant to the context in which yorksrob was using it, the past participle of "slew" is also "slewed".

I'm grateful to both of you for informing me of the correct form (alas even as a rail enthusiast, it's a verb I've rarely had cause to conjugate!)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

(The past tense of "slew" is "slewed".)

The last thing the S&C was is over engineered - it was built in a hurry, cheaply and out of spite and spite alone.

Having been at work in the office next door (literally) when the 1990/1/2 remedial works were going on, IIRC part of the problem is that whilst the outside of the viaduct is decent masonry, the inside is loose rubble fill, which has settled and expanded.

That would explain the issue I half-remembered then, with most of the strength being in the outside walls as a result.

It seems that stone was the material of choice for Victorian railway pioneers, with bricks or iron being a later development along with mixtures of two or more of the above. Timber was also used but I'm not aware of any substantial surviving timber viaducts still in use. The original Penistone viaduct was timber and collapsed to be replaced with a more typical stone structure, Longroyd Bridge/Paddock viaduct is a combination of stone arches and stone pillars with iron spans in the central section (and has needed significant work in recent years) and if I remember correctly Meldon is a combination of iron and timber, and would need significant work to see regular use again. There is of course concrete as used at Glenfinnan and more recently Medway which is more likely to be the material of choice for HS2 I'd have thought. Isn't Stockport viaduct the largest brick structure in Europe?

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't know the history, but your description of it being built out of spite is intriguing - what's the story if you don't mind explaining?

I dunno if I'd have said spite but the S&C was built by the Midland Railway due to a dispute between it and the London & North Western Railway over access to Carlisle for Scotland and then some rather good lobbying by other Railway companies.

To start with the LNWR were doing their best to be obstructive with unreasonable demands for compensation to take MR traffic or by making things operationally difficult (attaching MR through coaches to slow trains rather than expresses). The LNWR held the upper hand as they main link between the MR and the LNWR to Carlisle via a branch line that linked from Skipton to Tebay (on the WCML) via Clapham (Yorkshire not London ).

Eventually the MR decided to build it's own route to Carlisle Citadel from Skipton via Settle which bypassed the LNWR and got them straight into Carlisle from where they could work with various Scottish railway companies for onward transport to Scotland proper (the North British Railway to Edinburgh via the Waverley Line and the Caledonian Railway via the WCML to Glasgow).

Before construction began the LNWR gave into the MR and offered them reasonable terms over the existing route but the Caledonian and North British didn't want to be reliant on the LNWR for services south from Carlisle so lobbied for the MR route to be built anyway. And, as history shows, they were successful in that endeavour and the MR had to build it anyway.

So from the MR's perspective it ended up having to build a railway which it no longer needed or wanted solely because some other railways demanded that fullfil the obligations of an Act of Parliament, the original intention of which, had been rendered moot due to subsequent events.

At least that's what I picked up the last time I looked into this in any detail!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I dunno if I'd have said spite but the S&C was built by the Midland Railway due to a dispute between it and the London & North Western Railway over access to Carlisle for Scotland and then some rather good lobbying by other Railway companies.

To start with the LNWR were doing their best to be obstructive with unreasonable demands for compensation to take MR traffic or by making things operationally difficult (attaching MR through coaches to slow trains rather than expresses). The LNWR held the upper hand as they main link between the MR and the LNWR to Carlisle via a branch line that linked from Skipton to Tebay (on the WCML) via Clapham (Yorkshire not London ).

Eventually the MR decided to build it's own route to Carlisle Citadel from Skipton via Settle which bypassed the LNWR and got them straight into Carlisle from where they could work with various Scottish railway companies for onward transport to Scotland proper (the North British Railway to Edinburgh via the Waverley Line and the Caledonian Railway via the WCML to Glasgow).

Before construction began the LNWR gave into the MR and offered them reasonable terms over the existing route but the Caledonian and North British didn't want to be reliant on the LNWR for services south from Carlisle so lobbied for the MR route to be built anyway. And, as history shows, they were successful in that endeavour and the MR had to build it anyway.

So from the MR's perspective it ended up having to build a railway which it no longer needed or wanted solely because some other railways demanded that fullfil the obligations of an Act of Parliament, the original intention of which, had been rendered moot due to subsequent events.

At least that's what I picked up the last time I looked into this in any detail!

It might be slow, expensive to maintain, and serve little intermediate population but I'm glad they did, as it is regularly voted among the most scenic railway routes in Britain, Europe, and the World.