• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Revisiting HS2 alternatives

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
24 Jun 2014
Messages
442
Location
Derby
With regard to re-opening Woodhead, in Beeching part 2 it is shown as a 60mph route, and (from memory) Manchester - Sheffield Victoria services took about 55 minutes with stops at Guide Bridge, Dinting, and Penistone; it was four track between Ardwick and Hyde Junction, there were freight loops near Torside on the western side, and multiple tracks around Penistone.

Although the route seems to be relatively clear of obstructions between Hadfield and Deepcar, the Woodhead Tunnel is the great problem; perhaps something could be done with the old bores - could the two be made into one? - but the cost would be phenomenal.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,091
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Although the route seems to be relatively clear of obstructions between Hadfield and Deepcar, the Woodhead Tunnel is the great problem; perhaps something could be done with the old bores - could the two be made into one? - but the cost would be phenomenal.

Some loops at local stations on the Hope Valley (which could be done easily enough, they are generally not crammed in) and lengthening trains to South East style lengths would provide a lot of extra capacity there. Not sure Woodhead is really necessary.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,314
Location
Herts
With regard to re-opening Woodhead, in Beeching part 2 it is shown as a 60mph route, and (from memory) Manchester - Sheffield Victoria services took about 55 minutes with stops at Guide Bridge, Dinting, and Penistone; it was four track between Ardwick and Hyde Junction, there were freight loops near Torside on the western side, and multiple tracks around Penistone.

Although the route seems to be relatively clear of obstructions between Hadfield and Deepcar, the Woodhead Tunnel is the great problem; perhaps something could be done with the old bores - could the two be made into one? - but the cost would be phenomenal.


One really does not want to go into the standard "Woodhead Route debate" , but the old bores were signed out of use in the early 1950's and the new ones have high voltage electricity feeder cables in them. Maybe this sleeping dog should be left to dream in peace.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,252
What is "Beeching part 2?"
The titled Part 2 of the “Beeching report - Reshaping Britain’s Railways” - was just the maps referred to in the main report, they were in a separate booklet.

Available on the railway archives site here: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001b.pdf

The further document about “Development of the major Railway Trunk Routes” is then also sometimes referred to as Beeching 2:

Available here:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech002.pdf

The section discussing Woodhead is about page 83.
 
Last edited:

Railwaysceptic

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2017
Messages
1,736
The titled Part 2 of the “Beeching report - Reshaping Britain’s Railways” - was just the maps referred to in the main report, they were in a separate booklet.

Available on the railway archives site here: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech001b.pdf

The further document about “Development of the major Railway Trunk Routes” is then also sometimes referred to as Beeching 2:

Available here:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BRB_Beech002.pdf

The section discussing Woodhead is about page 83.
Thank you. I do know about Dr. Beeching's second report but I'd never heard it referred to as part 2. I thought it must be a TV programme or something!
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,252
Thank you. I do know about Dr. Beeching's second report but I'd never heard it referred to as part 2. I thought it must be a TV programme or something!
I think you're right, it's definitely a different report rather than being part 2 of 2.
 

Indigo Soup

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2018
Messages
1,485
I think you're right, it's definitely a different report rather than being part 2 of 2.
One gets the impression that Beeching would have liked to issue the two as one report, but pressure to show that Something Is Being Done about the railways led to The Reshaping of British Railways being published two years before Development of the Major Railway Trunk Routes.
 

LUYMun

Established Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
1,379
Location
Cancelled
I believe that running more local trains on the main lines should be necessary whilst HS2's construction is underway.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,025
Location
St Albans
I believe that running more local trains on the main lines should be necessary whilst HS2's construction is underway.
During HS2 construction, there won't be any more paths available than at present. Why would it be necessary to run more local trains, (at the expense of through trains)?
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,035
With the current political uncertainty, there are increasing voices from politicians to cancel HS2. Whether you are pro or anti HS2, alternatives might be back on the agenda. So what is the business case?

Is it speed or capacity increases that are required on the rail network?

Could anyone hazard a guess at the cost of the following package?
  • Electrifying Marylebone to Birmingham (infrastructure and rolling stock)
  • Reinstate St Pancras to Manchester and fully electrify MML to Sheffield, Manchester and Leeds
  • Reinstate and fully electrify the Woodhead route
  • Electrify Birmingham to Reading and Heathrow
  • Southern access to Heathrow
  • The complete reopening of the Waverley route to Carlisle

I'm not sure on the costs, however the first point to make is that although some of these schemes would provide North South capacity it's likely to only make it more attractive to travel by rail so the small increases in capacity would be used up very quickly.

With the Southern Approach to Heathrow (assuming it connects through to Paddington) it'll make it a lot easier to access HS2 for a large area around the SWR region if they are both built (which I think it's likely). That then makes long distance rail, compared to driving, a lot more attractive.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,194

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
7,553
Location
Torbay
I'm not sure anyone can be a member of the TPA !

Despite calling themselves The Taxpayers Alliance they don't allow taxpayers to join. A very shady set-up.
Indeed they only have 'supporters', rather like the Brexit 'party'. They share an address with a number of other right wing pressure groups and think tanks associated with Brexit, climate change denial, etc. They are all linked the US Koch brothers funded (allegedly) Atlas network.
https://www.desmog.co.uk/55-tufton-street
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,440
The ECML is being upgraded to support 8tph of long distance services, through ETCS south of Peterborough and other work. Where will the extra two services go? First open access service will only have 5tpd. Would Nottingham to London via Grantham and / or Sheffield to London via Retford work as an interim measure in the event of HS2 being significantly delayed? It would require significant work to support sufficient capacity and speed to connect either city with the ECML but would ease capacity problems on the MML.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,252
The ECML is being upgraded to support 8tph of long distance services, through ETCS south of Peterborough and other work. Where will the extra two services go? First open access service will only have 5tpd. Would Nottingham to London via Grantham and / or Sheffield to London via Retford work as an interim measure in the event of HS2 being significantly delayed? It would require significant work to support sufficient capacity and speed to connect either city with the ECML but would ease capacity problems on the MML.
The planned 8 tph is already allocated, so no. There’s a thread about it here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-ecml-lner-services.177199/
...the link in the first post takes you to the ECML operator track access application for their agreed paths. Basically there are 6.5 paths per hour for the franchised operator, and 1.5 for the combined Open Access services, ie Hull Trains, Grand Central and First group Edinburgh.
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
4,440
The planned 8 tph is already allocated, so no. There’s a thread about it here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/future-ecml-lner-services.177199/
...the link in the first post takes you to the ECML operator track access application for their agreed paths. Basically there are 6.5 paths per hour for the franchised operator, and 1.5 for the combined Open Access services, ie Hull Trains, Grand Central and First group Edinburgh.

3tph to Newcastle with 2tph extending to Edinburgh + the First open access service does seem a bit excessive! I guess the extra capacity provided by the second Corby service and introduction of bi mode fleet will be sufficient capacity until 2033, while the ECML needs both extra paths to enhance existing services to cope until then.
 

grove

Member
Joined
22 Aug 2014
Messages
81
Can we return to the question in my original post:

"With the current political uncertainty, there are increasing voices from politicians to cancel HS2. Whether you are pro or anti HS2, alternatives might be back on the agenda."

Perhaps the political pendulum has already swung so far that we will soon witness the end of HS2 and no sign of any real new route across the Pennines?
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,035
Can we return to the question in my original post:

"With the current political uncertainty, there are increasing voices from politicians to cancel HS2. Whether you are pro or anti HS2, alternatives might be back on the agenda."

Perhaps the political pendulum has already swung so far that we will soon witness the end of HS2 and no sign of any real new route across the Pennines?

And maybe that's your answer, if HS2 gets cancelled in its entirety it could be the end of major rail projects and we'll just see another few decades of upgrades to what we've got.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
I struggle to see how rebuilding the Woodhead and Waverley routes are alternative options to HS2 , I really do.

Someone is bound to come along and mention the GC main line at some point too (bonus points if they perpetuate the continental loading gauge myth).
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,314
Location
Herts
Someone is bound to come along and mention the GC main line at some point too (bonus points if they perpetuate the continental loading gauge myth).

An audio track stuck in an endless replay groove. Groundhog Day of the railway.
 
Joined
5 Aug 2011
Messages
791
On the tread about the Government review into HS2 the Genral Discussion forum I asked about what alternatives to HS2 would be to address the capacity problems on the Southern WCML?

How many unused freight paths are there on the WCML south of Birmingham? How many short trains are there on the Southern WCML, Pendolino's are 9 and 11 car and what length trains does the West Midlands franchise run?

On the MML I can see the scope for infrastructure improvements to increase capacity such as more platforms at Leicester and grade separation of Wigston junction to separate East West flows from the MML fasts and extending the 5 car bimodes to 9 car and hopefully completing the electrification to Leicester, Deby, Nottinam, Sheffield and Leeds eventually.

On the ECML the Warrington grade separation will improve capacity for fright and a flyover for the Nottingham to Lincoln line at Newark could be built to remove that pitch point though there is still the Welwyn viaduct on the Southern ECML (conveniently the local MP is the current Secretary of State for Transport so he should understand the problems of that bottleneck). I have no idea what the cost of building a second viaduct would be.

The above would waken the business case for the Eastern arm but will have no impact on the London -Birmingham phase 1 or Birmingham - Crewe phase 2a.

What infrastructure upgrades would be needed on the Southern WCML south of Crewe to keep up with growing demand?
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
Playing devil's advocate:

Manchester to Hadfield was mostly 4 track and the trackbed is owned by Network Rail. The real killer for reopening Woodhead has always been cost vs upgrading Hope Valley line.

I think its possible to have a Marylebone to Moor Street 3tph with 75 minute journey. The biggest constraints now are the number of stops and congestion, both of which can be resolved. Wembley Stadium Station could be reduced to event only services and Sudbury & Harrow Road, Sudbury Hill Harrow and Northolt Park closed. All have a limited service and better alternatives close by. Stretches of 4 track / passing loops could be added. The line into Birmingham could be restored to 4 track. Obviously this gets to the point that it would be easier to build a new line.... But it is possible to significantly increase the capacity of the Chiltern route and get journey times to a level sufficient to remove 2tph of WCML express London-Birmingham services (adding Watford Junction and Rugby to London-Birmingham-Scotland service). That would free up 2tph for services to the North and Scotland. With a major timetable recast and no open access service it would be possible to fit in 9tph to north / Scotland express + 1tph London-Birmingham-Scotland.
Quite a few through lines at stations have been taken out. Beaconsfield being an example. A south facing bay at Gerards Cross would help too.
 

Jorge Da Silva

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2018
Messages
2,641
Location
Cleethorpes, North East Lincolnshire
https://www.citymetric.com/transport/no-great-central-main-line-not-adequate-alternative-hs2-4739

Good article here by City Metric on why reopening GC is not much cheaper than HS2 and is not a suitable alternative to it.

On 3 August, the Spectator published an article arguing that there was a superior alternative to building HS2: reopening the Great Central Main Line.

That line stretched from London Marylebone, through Rugby, Leicester, and Nottingham, to Sheffield and Manchester. It was closed under the Beeching cuts, on the grounds that it was largely a duplicate of the Midland Main Line, but much of the trackbed is still extant.

Reviving this route perhaps would cost less to build than HS2: some parts of it are still in mainline use. But it remains an inferior option, nonetheless.

For a start, the Great Central route would miss out two of the four key HS2 cities, Leeds and Birmingham. It would thus not fulfil one of the key purposes of HS2 – relieving the West Coast Main Line. Instead it would increase capacity on the Midland Main Line, probably the least important of the three north-south mainlines – something reflected in the fact that it still hasn't been electrified. (Cheers, Chris. No, we're not going to stop mentioning you, even though you've lost your job. Sorry.)

Also, why go to the trouble of building a new high-speed railway that misses out the UK's second city (Birmingham) and one of its fastest-growing (Leeds)? Instead, we get Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham, and Sheffield. These places are important – and desperately need better transport links – but it seems ridiculous to suggest that they are more important than Leeds and Birmingham.

HS2 will be faster, too. Whilst trains tend to dominate the market share for fast journeys when the journey itself takes less than 2hr30, only a few services – between London and Manchester, for example – are already fast enough to ensure a dominant market share. There is immense potential for onward journeys to Newcastle, Carlisle, Glasgow, and Edinburgh – places from which train travel to London and Birmingham does take longer than 2hr30. (Indeed, it takes longer to get to Birmingham from Newcastle than it does to get to London.)

HS2 services, using the HS2-only route to Manchester or Leeds and then moving onto classic sections of the rail network, will deliver real journey time reductions to these places, making rail travel more attractive for people living in the north-east, north-west, and Scotland. If we're building a whole new line, we might as well build it properly.

The Great Central would also still require expensive tunnelling beneath Nottingham and Leicester. In Leicester, almost all of the trackbed has been built on; in Nottingham, it's been taken over by trams. In Sheffield, things are simpler, but the route is also safeguarded for potential tram extensions. In this way, the Great Central route could in fact damage local transport.

To add to this, connections within cities will be awkward. Most of the big city stations on the Great Central route – Sheffield Victoria, Nottingham Victoria, Leicester Central, Rugby Central – have been closed and no longer exist. Transfers from these stations to others will be necessary anyway.

So is the Great Central route really a simpler alternative? The sections from London-Aylesbury and Manchester-Hadfield are also congested, and expensive and disruptive capacity improvements would be vital, probably including two additional tracks alongside these sections for intercity services. This alone would cost billions.

When you also consider that the original terminus, London Marylebone, has no spare capacity – In fact, no London terminus has any real spare capacity – and that land prices in London are astronomical, a London terminus for the new Great Central Main Line will cost more billions.

The final problem with the Great Central route is a less obvious one. The British public has something of an obsession with heritage railways: it's one of those strangely British things, like drinking tea, keeping vast numbers of pets, or constantly talking about the weather. The Great Central railway is one such heritage railway, with two sections of track still in use – one from Leicester to Loughborough, and another from just north of Loughborough to just south of Nottingham.

A major project has been underway for some years to reconnect the two halves, and the railway is somewhat unique as the only double-track heritage railway in the world operating. This project, with its 18 miles of track, would have to be torn apart. Think the British public are angry at the destruction of ancient woodland? Just wait until you break up a major heritage railway.

The Great Central line may still has a role to play – much of it could and should be reopened. Reopening the line from Rugby to London, for example, would be fairly simple, bar station improvements at both ends, and could increase capacity on the most congested section of the WCML – an easy win.

But it's not an adequate replacement for HS2, and it wouldn't end up being much cheaper either, with extensive tunnelling and compensation schemes needed anyway. HS2 is not perfect, and more stations are needed – but it remains the better option for the UK. The Great Central route is no real alternative.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295

cosmo

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2018
Messages
135
Location
North East England
If money were no object, I reckon a better overall solution would have been to reimagine "High Speed 2" as a larger, broader project to embark on the upgrade of the following lines to enable faster running, like HS1:

  • Great Western Mainline (Paddington-Bristol) 140mph upgrade
  • West Coast Mainline (Euston-Glasgow Central) 140mph upgrade
  • Glasgow Central-Edinburgh Waverley via Carstairs 110mph upgrade
  • East Coast Mainline (Edinburgh-Kings Cross) 140mph upgrade
  • Cross Country route (Bristol-Tamworth) 125-140mph upgrades

Obviously money is an object and this isn't feasible now, but really I think we needed more of a broader, wider scope to upgrade the mainlines rather than 250 mph trains to Birmingham and little in the way of extra speed elsewhere.
 
Last edited:

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
18,051
Location
Reston City Centre
And maybe that's your answer, if HS2 gets cancelled in its entirety it could be the end of major rail projects and we'll just see another few decades of upgrades to what we've got.

Agreed.

All of the reasons to cancel HS2 are reasons to cancel other railway schemes too - the money could be better spent on the NHS, the project has gone over budget, it won't be delivered within expected timescales, it's been descoped, it isn't worth trying to provide a faster journey because "business people" might end up using it, it doesn't solve problems in places hundreds of miles away, spend it on broadband instead, passenger growth has peaked and we'll all be working from home in the future... all of the reasons that enthusiasts trot out to criticise HS2 are reasons why their favourite upgrade/re-opening are similarly weak - if we concede on HS2 then it becomes easy for the Government to decide that other rail schemes are similarly poor value.

Put it this way, it's hard to argue against HS2 on the "spending huge sums of money to save five minutes" and then insist that we upgrade the Transpennine line because it's important to save five minutes on that route...

...and there really isn't room on existing lines to introduce 140mph trains, partly because there's no capacity... and little scope for introducing an additional pair of tracks... unless you build those additional tracks on a brand new alignment... in which case you might as well engineer them to be a much faster route (because most of the costs will be identical - land purchase, most of the engineering etc)... and if you're going to do that then you might as well....
 

cosmo

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2018
Messages
135
Location
North East England
Agreed.

All of the reasons to cancel HS2 are reasons to cancel other railway schemes too - the money could be better spent on the NHS, the project has gone over budget, it won't be delivered within expected timescales, it's been descoped, it isn't worth trying to provide a faster journey because "business people" might end up using it, it doesn't solve problems in places hundreds of miles away, spend it on broadband instead, passenger growth has peaked and we'll all be working from home in the future... all of the reasons that enthusiasts trot out to criticise HS2 are reasons why their favourite upgrade/re-opening are similarly weak - if we concede on HS2 then it becomes easy for the Government to decide that other rail schemes are similarly poor value.

Put it this way, it's hard to argue against HS2 on the "spending huge sums of money to save five minutes" and then insist that we upgrade the Transpennine line because it's important to save five minutes on that route...

...and there really isn't room on existing lines to introduce 140mph trains, partly because there's no capacity... and little scope for introducing an additional pair of tracks... unless you build those additional tracks on a brand new alignment... in which case you might as well engineer them to be a much faster route (because most of the costs will be identical - land purchase, most of the engineering etc)... and if you're going to do that then you might as well....

As much as I'd like to see better links and upgrades in the north, I get HS2 (as planned) brings that to Manchester and Leeds - I'm not blind to HS2's benefits, as much as I disagree that Leeds should be the northern terminus (I think Northern Powerhouse Rail should have been integrated into HS2 as a Phase 3 of sorts) - but the idea it might be reduced to only go as far as Birmingham (which is a possibility with the HS2 review incoming) is what gets me.

Sure, the "classic compatible" trains will bring connectivity further up the country too. I'm not really opposed to HS2 on cost, I get that things take money to build, heck, Nexus just got £360m or so for new Metro trains (even though they asked for £500m). It just irks me that if so much money is going to be spent, it can't be spent on anything further north. I mean Newcastle is a major city, as is York, as is Doncaster. And yet, HS2 isn't going to really give these major cities any decrease in journey time. Sure, we have the LNER Azuma program which will improve acceleration, but when the south is getting a new 250mph rail line that might not make it past Birmingham... it just fuels the idea that the North is being short-changed.

I mean the North East is the least-funded region in the UK, and while London can consider a Crossrail 2 before the first is even completed, we can't even get 75% of what we asked for the Metro. We won't see the new Northern 195s or 331s, even though refurb 156s and 158s are still an improvement on Pacers. You have to head down to York before you start seeing 170s, which again are refurb cascades.

Getting off topic, I know, so to bring this back to HS2 - while I get that it's meant to improve times to London and relieve the WCML south of Birmingham, I just can't help but shake the feeling that maybe a more general program of improvements might have been the better option.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top