Revenue Protection at Brighton

[williamn]

You could argue that with a low cost airline you probably shouldn’t expect great service. Given I paid over £40 for my short trip to London however…

 

[signed]

You could argue that with a low cost airline you probably shouldn’t expect great service

Why? EasyJet has a OK customer service

 

[yorksrob]

Is it big business trying to fleece us, or is it the (large) minority who try to steal off the businesses, making it unprofitable to continue without these measures? I suspect a bit of both.

No, it's big business ref all the utility, telecoms, banks etc.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

You must present your supporting documentation to an authorised member of rail staff if asked to do so, regardless of reasons for why it may be “annoying”.

Many people buy and use discounted tickets without actually having the documents to do so.

I get they have every right to do something like that. I just think there are some instances where the better approach may simply be to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

In general however, many of these issues could be solved if in the longer term, you had to scan a railcard in some way (E.G. using a QR code at the ticket machine), because that would prevent instances of obtaing discounts immediately. That would have to be a nationwide scheme in all likelihood, but that could help to solve an industry problem of lost revenue like that. To make sure you dont share an individual railcard, there could be some limits on how many times it can be used within a certain time, and for what type of ticket, so for example you cant use that same railcard for more than 1 journey from Hove to Brighton over the course of an hour.

 

[signed]

In general however, many of these issues could be solved if in the longer term, you had to scan a railcard in some way (E.G. using a QR code at the ticket machine), because that would prevent instances of obtaing discounts immediately. That would have to be a nationwide scheme in all likelihood, but that could help to solve an industry problem of lost revenue like that. To make sure you dont share an individual railcard, there could be some limits on how many times it can be used within a certain time, and for what type of ticket, so for example you cant use that same railcard for more than 1 journey from Hove to Brighton over the course of an hour.

I started a thread about that https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ialized-to-prevent-abuse.275346/#post-6979742

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

No, it's big business ref all the utility, telecoms, banks etc.

Unfortunately however, there will always be some people who will attempt to beat any system and consequently steal money from companies.

In general however, I would maybe recommend that further discussion of "customer as enemies" might have to take place on a separate page, as there will probably be a moderator pointing out this is off topic sooner or later, considering the page is officially only meant to be for discussing Brighton station and the enforcement officers.

 

[DJ_K666]

Or, if people bought tickets like they are supposed to do, there wouldn't be the need to hassle customers anywhere.

Perhaps.

It works both ways and even if you  do all that you still get them treating you with suspicion.

i always treated them with respect and as a (former) Go-Ahead staff member with the corresponding concessionary annual ticket they started recognising me on sight.
Mind you I'm pretty recognisable anyway. There were very few bus drivers like me on Brighton &Hove at the time.

I'd often encourage up chatting with gateline staff if there was time.

 

[jon0844]

I realise some may see these checks at Brighton as a pain, but I heard they issued well over 130 penalty fares or MG11s in just one day - so it's going to be quite tempting for them to continue doing blocks if there's this level of fare evasion going on.

I am quite sure that most people who pay a lot to travel would quite like to see all those that do not, or mess around with short tickets or buying e-tickets last second, being punished.

For years, I've said blocks have other benefits in that they often reduce anti-social behaviour/vandalism problems on trains (as in some people won't simply pay for a ticket, but will be actively discouraged from travel entirely) and if supported by police will often find people with weapons, drugs or wanted on warrant etc.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

One gaping hole in these checks at Brighton.
Inbound passengers arriving on platforms 3-6 without a ticket could very easily board the first train back to Preston Park, which is of course, ungated.
Assuming their inbound train doesn’t call there anyway

 

[jon0844]

In any block, there are numerous plain clothed people who single out anyone that turns around and walks away. Of course there's always the fact that after a while word will spread on social media that everyone should avoid an area due to checks. The solution is to move the blocks around and change the times they're done.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Staff will absolutely refuse to let you cross across the platform side of the concourse (in my case from an East Coastway service On P8 onto a West Coastway on I think P3) even if you're showing them a valid ticket. I tried reasoning with one the other day but he absolutely wouldn't have it, despite me having a ton of luggage in tow.

During Brighton Pride, one of the biggest in the country with how hugely LGBT-friendly Brighton is as a city, they have a queueing system outside the station. I usually stay for the whole weekend but this year I was only able to attend for the day, so when travelling home I caught the 49 bus to Portslade, started my journey there and was intending to change at Brighton onto Gatwick Express to Victoria, as I thought I could beat the queues at Brighton and also didn't think the revenue staff would send you out and ask you to re-join if you were just changing trains. How wrong I was! When I showed them my perfectly valid ticket, they absolutely refused to budge and allow me to board my Gatwick Express on P6, so I simply returned to Hove immediately on the next West Coastway departure and changed at Hove for the direct Victoria along the Brighton avoider, which was frustrating as the Littlehampton to Victoria service does call everywhere but it was better than nothing. I do prefer Gatwick Express as its quicker but had I known that would have happened at Brighton I'd have just boarded the Victoria service direct from Portslade (which I will do in future if ever I'm in the same position again) but the revenue officer's face was a picture when he saw me return back to the West Coastway train!!

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

One gaping hole in these checks at Brighton.
Inbound passengers arriving on platforms 3-6 without a ticket could very easily board the first train back to Preston Park, which is of course, ungated.
Assuming their inbound train doesn’t call there anyway

I don't think that would happen in all likelihood, because in all likelihood you would specifically get on a train that calls at Preston Park in the first place. On top of that, many trains that call at Preston park would have their ticket checked at some point on the London Victoria to Littlehampton service. I also don't think it would likely work out at Brighton, given they would probably see you were doing something suspicious by just staying at the station like that, and ask you for a ticket check, where you would get caught red handed.

I think a more likely scenario however could be travelling Preston Park to Coastway (either east or west) without a ticket, because you cannot change from Coastway to London (or the other coastway line for that matter) due to how exit gates are arranged which are gated off from the rest of the station, but the entry gates are shared with the London platform, and the way in to the coastway lines isn't gated off by staff, so someone in a big crowd could easily turn away from the ticket barriers and onto the coastway platforms, and easily get onto the coastway lines to allight at a station with no gates. In all likelihood, given you would probably get away with that, as Thameslink don't have ticket checks, and if you allight shortly into a journey, you would most likely get off before a ticket check on Southern.

During Brighton Pride, one of the biggest in the country with how hugely LGBT-friendly Brighton is as a city, they have a queueing system outside the station. I usually stay for the whole weekend but this year I was only able to attend for the day, so when travelling home I caught the 49 bus to Portslade, started my journey there and was intending to change at Brighton onto Gatwick Express to Victoria, as I thought I could beat the queues at Brighton and also didn't think the revenue staff would send you out and ask you to re-join if you were just changing trains. How wrong I was! When I showed them my perfectly valid ticket, they absolutely refused to budge and allow me to board my Gatwick Express on P6, so I simply returned to Hove immediately on the next West Coastway departure and changed at Hove for the direct Victoria along the Brighton avoider, which was frustrating as the Littlehampton to Victoria service does call everywhere but it was better than nothing. I do prefer Gatwick Express as its quicker but had I known that would have happened at Brighton I'd have just boarded the Victoria service direct from Portslade (which I will do in future if ever I'm in the same position again) but the revenue officer's face was a picture when he saw me return back to the West Coastway train!!

With that whole scenario, you should consider yourself very lucky to live on the West Coastway line, because that connects to the mainline by a short track chord, whereas with the East Coastway, because it connects by a branch line from Wivelsfield to Lewes, avoiding London Road, Moulsecoomb and Falmer, the only ways to get to London is to take an indirect train via Lewes, or a more direct one into Brighton, where you have to change and cross across the concourse straight to your platform and go through a long queue thanks to those officers turning people away from the direct route from platform 7/8 to 1-6.

In general, I think a better approach to this whole situation would just be to move the ticket barriers further back, and expand the space on the platform-side concourse so there is space for 3 routes from each pair of Coastway platforms, one for exiting the station, 1 for accessing the platform and 1 for changing trains (to either London trains or the other Coastway line), and have the latter of the three have an officer checking tickets on demand to make sure you actually have a ticket. Unfortunately, that requires investment, and money to be spent so Rachel Reeves would say no to anything that involves spending money instead of filling her "black hole".

 

[MrJeeves]

On top of that, many trains that call at Preston park would have their ticket checked at some point on the London Victoria to Littlehampton service.

Bold claim... Thameslink also exists though.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Bold claim... Thameslink also exists though.

OK, fair point, I take that claim back, but in all likelihood, I can't see why someone would in practice do a double back at Brighton itself like that.

I general though, that loophole could probably be closed if they added ticket barriers to Preston Park (and maybe at Wivelsfield as that could be used as a way of dodging ticket barriers at Burgess Hill), because that would solve the root cause of the problem with people managing to even enter the rail system without a ticket in the first place.

Obviously though in terms of valid tickets (I.E. ones from your actual starting point to your actual finishing point, not split tickets that save money be only having them for first and last legs of journeys which would be seen by any systems as valid tickets), that is a problem that I don't think can ever be fixed without preventing people from changing the starting point of a ticket in a way that it activates any barriers you have to go through over the course of a journey, leaving gaps in coverage of a journey. Such a hypothetical system would prevent people from buying tickets from Hove to London Road from a station a very long away. That system cannot be implemented, given that split tickets are often essential for many journeys, so in general, revenue protection officers at Brighton sending people through gatelines won't be able to fix the problem of lost revenue in the slightest.

In general, its a case where Southern have the diagnosis correct at Brighton, that too many people dodge fares. The problem is that the precription of revenue protection officers and resulting blockades, overcrowding and even potential crushes (in the long term mainly though) at Brighton won't solve the problem fully due to the reality of the ticket system with too many complications and loopholes, that leads many people to misuse the system, either accidentally or deliberately, leading too many people to get penalty fares, either correctly or wrongfully.

 

[MrJeeves]

I can't see why someone would in practice do a double back at Brighton itself like that.

I think the point was that people would do a double-back when they arrive at Brighton and see a crowd of RPIs!

[In] general though, that loophole could probably be closed if they added ticket barriers to Preston Park (and maybe at Wivelsfield as that could be used as a way of dodging ticket barriers at Burgess Hill), because that would solve the root cause of the problem with people managing to even enter the rail system without a ticket in the first place.

There really isn't any room whatsoever for barriers at either Preston Park or Wivelsfield without creating potentially dangerous levels of congestion during peak.

At Wivelsfield, the western entrance is purely steps up to a ticket machine and then immediately into the underpass with steps up to Platform 1. There isn't space for ticket barriers here at all without rather significant construction work to expand the area around that ticket machine and then relocate the (already deteriorating, wooden) stairs.

If you had suggested this prior to the Access For All planning documents release from Network Rail, I would have perhaps said "yes, this is possible", but given the changes they have planned for, which does not include any provision to install barriers at all, this is never going to happen (at least not without then making it so the lifts bypass any and all barriers anyway!).

I'd also add that Burgess Hill has its side barriers open a rather large amount of the time anyway!

Likewise at Preston Park, the walkway under the railway line is so narrow that you can sometimes already struggle to get through if two services arrive/depart at around the same time, especially in peak hours.

In general, its a case where Southern have the diagnosis correct at Brighton, that too many people dodge fares. The problem is that the precription of revenue protection officers and resulting blockades, overcrowding and even potential crushes (in the long term mainly though) at Brighton won't solve the problem fully due to the reality of the ticket system with too many complications and loopholes, that leads many people to misuse the system, either accidentally or deliberately, leading too many people to get penalty fares, either correctly or wrongfully.

I agree that Brighton is certainly a hotspot for where fare evasion can be detected simply due to the number of connections being made there.

I've not seen anything at Brighton during the running of this scheme which makes me believe there will be any crushes, though. It's not a station where a trainload of commuters are all alighting every 3 minutes like you might see on the Tube. The implementation at Brighton can be used successfully to find simple cases of blatant fare evasion, and, while that might cause some to progress into things like short fares and doughnutting, I'd hazard a guess that most will just suck it up and actually buy tickets which they should.

I don't see how any of this is going to cause people to "get penalty fares [...] wrongfully", though?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I don't see how any of this is going to cause people to "get penalty fares [...] wrongfully", though?

Only thing I can think that might lead to complications is that Aldrington's TVM is broken nearly 24/7 but as it is unstaffed it rarely, if ever, shows on the Southern's live station updates page. Previously people will attempt to buy from the OBS if they're not in the back-cab or will report to the fares to pay booth at Brighton. As a result of being prohibited from changing platforms without going in, out, and all around, it is now impossible to access the booth. If the RPI doesn't believe the story of the TVM being broken, I'd expect a PF to be issued which may not be the easiest to appeal.

 

[williamn]

many trains that call at Preston park would have their ticket checked at some point on the London Victoria to Littlehampton service. I also don't think it would likely work out at Brighton

On board ticket checks on Southern seem to be pretty much non existent. In neighbouring Southeastern barely a journey goes by without being checked.

 

[aftv]

On board ticket checks on Southern seem to be pretty much non existent. In neighbouring Southeastern barely a journey goes by without being checked.

I had mine checked on my way upto London yesterday from Crawley.
The OBS seemed to be pretty much nonexistent on the way back though - it could have somthing to do with the fact i was sat in coach 1 of a 12 coach train on the way back

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I don't see how any of this is going to cause people to "get penalty fares [...] wrongfully", though?

There have been plenty of news stories where people have got penalty fares as a result of slight misunderstandings in the system, such as misusing a railcard and underpaying a collosal £4 or something along those lines, and getting penalty fares. With such a complex system, which maybe some revenue protection officers may not understand, including legal loopholes in the systems
On top of that, plenty of people could get a penalty fare as a result of a broken ticket machine, such as the one at Aldrington, and having no way to prove that you made a slight mistake, or if there were other factors leading to anything like having no ticket or an invalid ticket

I think the point was that people would do a double-back when they arrive at Brighton and see a crowd of RPIs!

I don't think that would happen, because people who intend to dodge rail fares on journeys which end at Brighton should know full well that there are already ticket barriers at Brighton, so dodging a fare and getting out of Brighton station scot-free would have been impossible even without the RPIs, given you would have to climb over the barriers, which would attract attention of any ordinary staff and cause you to be caught red-handed. The alternative would be to change at Brighton and travel to an ungated station, which can still be done as there is nothing preventing people from changing from London to Coastway (just not the other way round, which is one loophole that has been closed thanks to the RPIs and blocking off the path).

Ultimately, seeing a crowd of RPIs wouldn't change things when you already couldn't dodge a fare when exiting at Brighton.

I've not seen anything at Brighton during the running of this scheme which makes me believe there will be any crushes, though. It's not a station where a trainload of commuters are all alighting every 3 minutes like you might see on the Tube. The implementation at Brighton can be used successfully to find simple cases of blatant fare evasion, and, while that might cause some to progress into things like short fares and doughnutting, I'd hazard a guess that most will just suck it up and actually buy tickets which they should.

I don't really think that will happen in the immediate future. I mainly think that if rail growth continues to grow, particularly on the coastway lines, then without improvements to Brighton station, that could lead to overcrowding around ticket barriers, as there are now significantly fewer that people can legally use to exit at Brighton, as previously you could legally use any of them. The path to get to them was relatively narrow as well when I visited the station on Friday for the first time since March (before the scheme started), which could present future problems at the height of peak time in the future. Trains on the coastway lines themselves are already pretty overcrowded at present with them only being 3 or 4 carriages, although that can be lengthened in the future fortunately, but that could add pressure to Brighton however.

Ultimately though, I am mainly referring to present gateline configurations, as I'm sure they could someday add more gatelines when the existing ones eventually life-expire, which could expand to cover more of the width of the station by relocating the big departure screen so its more of a freestanding structure more centred in the station (I.E. centred around platforms 4 and 5, instead of 2 and 3).

I had mine checked on my way upto London yesterday from Crawley.
The OBS seemed to be pretty much nonexistent on the way back though - it could have somthing to do with the fact i was sat in coach 1 of a 12 coach train on the way back

It does to be fair seem like a case where they do it more on Arun Valley services than on Coastway london services. Its probably a simple case of the service being generally quieter however

 

[jon0844]

People push through gates all the time, knowing that nobody will stop them. These blocks are sadly necessary to try and re-educate some people that what they're doing isn't acceptable. I realise some people will get upset that they're caught up, but do we want a large number of people to travel for free - often being involved in other crimes? 30% fare evasion or more is ridiculous. Southeastern has similar issues, which also needs to be addressed before the railway becomes a free-for-all and we return to times when a lot of people feel unsafe to travel.

 

[aftv]

It does to be fair seem like a case where they do it more on Arun Valley services than on Coastway london services. Its probably a simple case of the service being generally quieter however

Slightly at risk of going off topic here but I thoght it could be something to do with the amount of ungated/unstaffed (to my knowledge) stations south of Horsham (bar Littlehaven, Faygate and Ifield.)

 

[ThameslinkUser]

but do we want a large number of people to travel for free - often being involved in other crimes?

This is not a binary option with people being able to easily make the journeys they paid thousands of pounds for based on connection times that existed at time of purchase.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Slightly at risk of going off topic here but I thoght it could be something to do with the amount of ungated/unstaffed (to my knowledge) stations south of Horsham (bar Littlehaven, Faygate and Ifield.)

Indeed. I don't think there is a single station south of Horsham before Barnham with a gateline because most of them get fewer than half a million passengers a year, meaning its worthwhile to do a ticket check as the trains are generally. Compared to Brighton to Worthing by comparison, many stations don't have barriers, but the train is too busy to do a check by that point, particularly on the last leg. As mentioned, the only way to eliminate this would be with more ticket barriers at stations which can't really have them fitted, so the only other way at that point would be to effectively close down stations like East Worthing, Aldrington and Fishersgate (as I suspect Southwick station could be redesigned in a way that ticket barriers could be added, obviosuly a big job though with more staff required), but that is ridiculously tricky these days, and would lead to local anger from everyone in the area.

People push through gates all the time, knowing that nobody will stop them

That is of course the case, good point well made. Out of all stations however, there were already plenty of staff at Brighton, and while some people would happily risk it if you can run out of the station quick enough, with some other people, they probably would know they would get caught in a place like Brighton, given the transport police have quite a decent presence. If they did it at a smaller station, while they would probably get shouted at for illegally going through a barrier (whether that is climbing over or pushing through), if they run they could potentially get away with it, given many barriers only actually have a single member of staff on them, and they have more important business to take care of than chasing after a fare dodger.

Even at Brighton, you might not be able to stop that same scenario every single time with the extra staff, because people could still climb over a barrier or push through, and might still be able to make a run for it before security gets alerted and a member of staff comes in to catch them. While extra staff do of course make something like this less likely to actually happen, they can't outright eliminate it unless the actual barriers could be reshaped in a way that they were totally impentratable, such as being made even taller, or the barriers was reshaped that no one could ever squeeze through or crawl under, but that would take a long time to roll out nationwide.

In general, I really do get the requirement of these extra staff. I just feel it could have and should have been implemented in a better way where you don't ruin the journeys of people who literally have to change trains at Brighton.

 

[Howardh]

During Brighton Pride, one of the biggest in the country with how hugely LGBT-friendly Brighton is as a city, they have a queueing system outside the station. I usually stay for the whole weekend but this year I was only able to attend for the day, so when travelling home I caught the 49 bus to Portslade, started my journey there and was intending to change at Brighton onto Gatwick Express to Victoria, as I thought I could beat the queues at Brighton and also didn't think the revenue staff would send you out and ask you to re-join if you were just changing trains. How wrong I was! When I showed them my perfectly valid ticket, they absolutely refused to budge and allow me to board my Gatwick Express on P6, so I simply returned to Hove immediately on the next West Coastway departure and changed at Hove for the direct Victoria along the Brighton avoider, which was frustrating as the Littlehampton to Victoria service does call everywhere but it was better than nothing. I do prefer Gatwick Express as its quicker but had I known that would have happened at Brighton I'd have just boarded the Victoria service direct from Portslade (which I will do in future if ever I'm in the same position again) but the revenue officer's face was a picture when he saw me return back to the West Coastway train!!

The sheer volume of passengers on the trains means I don't go to Brighton Pride (I'd love to) and the cost of hotels over that period puts me off staying there too! I suppose thought it's quieter on the trains to head to Hove on trains that don't go to Brighton itself, and get the No7 from there? Or do many thousands think the same and it's no different?

NB I don't like overcrowded trains as I have difficulty standing for long periods (dodgy knee) and I need access to the loo; not always a given on a Thameslink when crowded!

 

[ValleyLines142]

The sheer volume of passengers on the trains means I don't go to Brighton Pride (I'd love to) and the cost of hotels over that period puts me off staying there too! I suppose thought it's quieter on the trains to head to Hove on trains that don't go to Brighton itself, and get the No7 from there? Or do many thousands think the same and it's no different?

NB I don't like overcrowded trains as I have difficulty standing for long periods (dodgy knee) and I need access to the loo; not always a given on a Thameslink when crowded!

Yes, I made the stupid mistake of boarding a Thameslink service at Blackfriars once, never again!! In future I'd probably go from Victoria on GatEx.

As for the Hove idea, I actually don't think that many do, so go with it!

 

[43066]

Yes, I made the stupid mistake of boarding a Thameslink service at Blackfriars once, never again!! In future I'd probably go from Victoria on GatEx.

Or get on at somewhere like St Pancras or Farringdon and double back. More likely to get a seat there before the train fills up to head south as it moves through the core.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Or get on at somewhere like St Pancras or Farringdon and double back. More likely to get a seat there before the train fills up to head south as it moves through the core.

Makes no difference. People come from the Northern fringe of Thameslink i.e. Bedford/Luton/St Albans; the joys of a cross city service! (although the 700s are amazing for standing capacity).

 

[Howardh]

Or get on at somewhere like St Pancras or Farringdon and double back. More likely to get a seat there before the train fills up to head south as it moves through the core.

Although it makes sense to get the tube from Euston lo London Bridge, for me it's better to walk to St Pancras as the Brighton train is usually quite empty, and fills up going southwards. Choice of seat, even in unclassified first!

 

[Edsmith]

On board ticket checks on Southern seem to be pretty much non existent. In neighbouring Southeastern barely a journey goes by without being checked.

Although ticket checks on Southeastern have increased I've done numerous journeys without any ticket check and ticket gates, where they exist, left open.

 

[Jim]

Sorry if this has been mentioned already, but re Preston Park, on days where they do a full block at Brighton (manual scanning of QR codes), they seem to often station a few grippers at Preston Park, presumably to do "entry scans" on people starting their journey there. Anyone from Preston Park without one, I assume it's a friendly chat with the revenue team!