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Reusing Carnet Pass

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londonboi

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Hi

Thanks so much for your responses. Over the weekend I am going to work on composing a factual and unreservedly apologetic letter stating why I did it, to save a bit of money, very tight month and hadn't been paid. Once I have done my draft I will post on here. I hope those with experience of such matters see this post and offer their expertise, it would be so greatly appreciated. I think I will tap up a solicitor on Monday to see what gems they can offer me. I am such an idiot, if only the clock could be turned back, if only!


Advice I would give to help your letter is keep if short but simple. Apologise and admit your wrong doing how you won't do it again etc etc. Don't include to much as to why you done if but most importantly apologise for your actions. You won't ever do it again and ask for a out of court settlement and that your happy to pay any administration costs in dealing with this matter that the company have incurred. Before you post it I world contact the fare experts on here to proof read it for you there a very helpful lot

Good luck
 
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Zeitgeist

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Okay all, please take a look at a draft letter I have composed to be sent to the Prosecutions department and please, please, please be honest about my response. I am aware I may have overegged my response but what I have said is honest and truthful and gushing with remorse for what I have done. I welcome any feedback to the following especially from the experts. Thanks in advance for your help. It is so greatly appreciated.

Draft Letter to Prosecutions Department

Dear Sir/Madam,

REF: XXXXXXXXX

I would like to thank you for your letter (dated Tuesday 16th February) and am extremely grateful to you for allowing me the opportunity to tell you what happened, factually and honestly.

On the morning of Wednesday 20th January I boarded the 8.01 train to London Kings Cross with an altered ticket. During that journey my ticket was flagged up by a revenue protection inspector (RPI) who discreetly pulled me to the side and quietly and professionally questioned me about the validity of my ticket. I was very cooperative in answering his questions. He took down my details and informed me that I would be hearing from his department in due course.

Why did I do it? Honestly, to save a bit of money due to what was a very cash strapped month and having to wait until the end of January to be paid. This by no way is an excuse, what I did is totally, without a shadow of a doubt, wrong and I sincerely promise that I will never ever do this again. This has been my first offence and I can assure you, it's my last.

Ever since my encounter with the RPI I realise what I have done is very, very wrong and incredibly stupid. I don't know what I was thinking. I have been agonising over the consequences of what I have done and it has caused me fair bit of stress. Of course, this is none of your concern and only mine to endure.

Therefore in regards to the following that has been alleged
* entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel and
* Altering a ticket with intent.

I admit both counts and would like to offer my humble, sincerest apologies to you and your team.
I am sure your team has far more important things needing attention rather than this stupid, self inflicted matter to impact your time.

I am aware such actions cost Govia Thameslink Railway financially and would like to offer to remedy this situation and avoid it being escalated further by way of an administrative settlement. I would like to offer payment of costs incurred as a result of my inappropriate, thoughtless and frankly stupid actions.

Once again I would like to thank you for allowing me the opportunity to express my version of events in regards to the morning of Wednesday 20th January.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours faithfully,
 

Zeitgeist

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Hello All

I heard back from them and they said to call them.
I finally got through to them today and they talked about an out of court settlement.

I now need to email them back about how much I would be willing to pay. They cannot state how much I should pay. However they did say that if too high it would be rejected! I also need to state why I want to settle out of court. I stated I want to settle this ASAP. I need to put an email together.

If any of you have any expert advice. I would greatly welcome any help/advice you can give me

Any advice is greatly appreciated as always. Thanks again!
 

najaB

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I heard back from them and they said to call them.
I finally got through to them today and they talked about an out of court settlement.

I now need to email them back about how much I would be willing to pay. They cannot state how much I should pay. However they did say that if too high it would be rejected! I also need to state why I want to settle out of court. I stated I want to settle this ASAP. I need to put an email together.
As discussed previously, the TOC will want to recover their losses and a contribution towards their costs. So if you used the carnet 10 times, you would be wanting to offer something like £157 (10 x £15.70) plus £100 towards their costs for a total of £257.

Make sure that you state how you came up with the figure you are suggesting, so that they can see that you are being reasonable.

Once you have a draft of your letter I'm sure the guys and gals of the forum will be happy to proof-read it for you.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I strongly agree with najaB in the need for you to assess the Company's losses acurately, and to demonstrate your reasoning for calculating the losses in the way that you do.

But I'm not persuaded that by simply adding £100 as a contribution to their costs makes an adequate settlement. I would suggest at least twice that for costs (to include a reasonable proportion of the costs of providing Revenue Protection personnel across the network who detect, deter and report irregularities, and in the course of those duties may work for hours without detecting any irregularity [might!] at all). An offer based on all of the above would simply return both the Company, and you, to the correct position you'd both have been in if all your fares had been paid correctly at the time of travel.

I would suggest that you also add a modest contribution as a voluntary 'penalty' to reflect your recognition that you have acted fraudulently and that you wish to accept some disadvantage for your wrongdoing, and that you are appreciative of the Company's offer to make a settlement which avoids the inevitable Criminal fine, the inevitable Company's legal costs against you, the inevitable Victim Surcharge, and possibly legal costs of your own, and which avoids all your time, expense, inconvenience and anxiety of responding to a Criminal Prosecution in the Magistrates Court.

I will leave you to choose that figure, but there has to be an element in your calculation which takes you beyond simply repaying whatever you hadn't paid when you travelled. Three digits.

Decline the offer, and those 'savings' from an Out of Court Settlement are likely to cost you £400 - £1k. That's in addition to the fares avoided and costs of investigating.
Accept the offer, and save costs (and the Fine, which goes to the state), so maybe 25% of that range.
 
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najaB

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I will leave you to choose that figure, but there has to be an element in your calculation which takes you beyond simply repaying whatever you hadn't paid when you travelled. Three digits.

Decline the offer, and it's likely to be £400 - £1k. That's in addition to the fares avoided and costs of investigating.
Accept the offer, and save costs (and the Fine, which goes to the state), so maybe 25% of that range.
Thanks very much for that - I wasn't sure what amount to offer in terms of costs, your advice and experience is much appreciated.
 

gray1404

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I'm really surprised that a TOC is asking a passenger to come up with their own figure for an out of court settlement and if it is too high it would be rejected, id expect the opposite. Why are GTR simply not giving their own figure + the fare as a settlement?
 

Zeitgeist

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Thanks DaveNewcastle for your comprehensive response and also yourself najaB

gray1404 I'm not sure why that is the case but maybe someone else can shed light on that...
 

ComUtoR

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I'm really surprised that a TOC is asking a passenger to come up with their own figure for an out of court settlement and if it is too high it would be rejected,

You would more likely to make payment on a figure you set yourself and would most likely pay quickly.
 

gray1404

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But the sort of person asking for an out of court settlement is wanting to avoid court so therefore would most likely pay an amount set by the TOC fast too. It will be interesting here to see if the TOC:

1. accept the offer from the OP
2. don't accept but make a counter offer - and what that might be
3. reject the offer and issue legal proceedings (and if it might count against them that they have rejected an out of court settlement having entered into negotiations to reach one with the OP).
 

najaB

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But the sort of person asking for an out of court settlement is wanting to avoid court so therefore would most likely pay an amount set by the TOC fast too.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was some kind of 'attitude test'. The TOC must already have an estimate of their loses, if the OP's offer roughly matches their figure then it's accepted. Too low and it looks like they're still trying it on, too high (without justification) and it indicates that the customer thinks they can buy their way around the law.
 

gray1404

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It wouldn't surprise me if it was some kind of 'attitude test'. The TOC must already have an estimate of their loses, if the OP's offer roughly matches their figure then it's accepted. Too low and it looks like they're still trying it on, too high (without justification) and it indicates that the customer thinks they can buy their way around the law.

I see your point. The problem I have though is the OP (and indeed most customers) might be totally clueless in terms of what to offer and lack experience of such settlements. I really do think the TOC should have named a price and left it to the OP to then accept (or reject).
 

sheff1

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It wouldn't surprise me if it was some kind of 'attitude test'. The TOC must already have an estimate of their loses, if the OP's offer roughly matches their figure then it's accepted. Too low and it looks like they're still trying it on, too high (without justification) and it indicates that the customer thinks they can buy their way around the law.

I imagine the vast majority of people would have no idea what the costs might be in such cases.
 
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najaB

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I imagine the vast majority of people would have no idea what the costs might be in such cases.
I wasn't speaking to the costs, but rather of their losses.

I agree that most people wouldn't know offhand what was typical in terms of costs, but it wouldn't be *that* hard to get a rough estimate of what might be reasonable from CAB or the Internet.
 

gray1404

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I wasn't speaking to the costs, but rather of their losses.

I agree that most people wouldn't know offhand what was typical in terms of costs, but it wouldn't be *that* hard to get a rough estimate of what might be reasonable from CAB or the Internet.

I am wondering if it might be worth someone else ringing up on behalf of the OP. Such as a solicitor or someone from the CAB who may be able to negoiate a realistic amount (rather then this name your offer approach). It is amazing how the approach taken by an organisation changes once someone legally qualified phones up/CAB.
 

sheff1

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Ah, right. I was overlooking the fact that the case involves multiple use of carnet tickets. I agree that, in such cases, only the passenger would know how many times they had done so.

Having said that, I still don't see how the TOC would know one way or the other whether the amount offered accurately reflected the losses. A passenger who had done it once would offer, say, the £30 fare but one who had done it 20 times could offer the correct £600 or 'try it on' by offering £150. Would either pass the attitude test ?
 
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najaB

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Having said that, I still don't see how the TOC would know one way or the other whether the amount offered accurately reflected the losses. A passenger who had done it once would offer, say, the £30 fare but one who had done it 20 times could offer the correct £600 or 'try it on' by offering £150. Would either pass the attitude test ?
I suspect they already have an idea of how many times they think the Carnet was reused - probably based on the date it was issued. That's the only reason I can think of for the 'suggest your settlement' approach.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I imagine the vast majority of people would have no idea what the costs might be in such cases.
Indeed. But they could ask.

. . . . it wouldn't be *that* hard to get a rough estimate of what might be reasonable from CAB or the Internet.
. . or from the party who incurred the costs. The railway Train Operating Company.

Zeitgeist, the principal element which you are being asked to assess is the element of actual losses. You could guess that the company's costs might be in the range £50 to £250 and probably in the middle of that range, but if you ask the investigating officer that you spoke to recently, they would give you a figure based on the actions currently on your file.
 
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sheff1

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I suspect they already have an idea of how many times they think the Carnet was reused - probably based on the date it was issued. That's the only reason I can think of for the 'suggest your settlement' approach.

I can see how that makes sense.
 
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Zeitgeist

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Hi All

I know when I was interviewed by the Revenue Protection Inspector he said he would need to take my ticket so they can put it through the machine to see how many times it was reused. They know!!

I guess the reason why they want me to propose a fare to pay is so that I do all the hard work looking at all the costs to consider and how very grave and serious a mistake this is. Just by paying it off over the phone is swift and the relief is over quickly, whereas this is more drawn out and makes it sink in to the OP, how very very serious this type of offence is. Oh, boy I know since they day I committed this.

I have worked on a letter and hope it's what they are after. I did over the phone propose a figure and he did say he would reject it as it was too high. He was very good and said just have a long think about it but not too long and email him.
 

WillPS

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IIRC the only data stored on the mag stripe (other than stuff added at the time of printing) is the last gate used (plus date/time). Once you pass through another gate, that is overwritten.

Could be wrong - but I don't think it'll have every gate it's opened on there.
 
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