Reusing Carnet Pass

[Zeitgeist]

Hello

I stupidly reused a Carnet Pass for a couple of days. When using a gel pen the ink wipes of so I reused it and I was pulled up by an inspector for improper usage today. I admitted not guilty to him as lots of commuters were within earshot.

Can you please advise what I should do?
I don't want to have a criminal record and will happily pay a fine.

I know I am a right tool for doing this and I will not do this ever again!

Your help/ advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help! I know. I'm an idiot!

 

[island]

Get saving. You may be offered an out of court settlement, but you're not guaranteed of this. You've committed the criminal offence of travelling on a train without having previously paid your fare and with the intend to avoid payment thereof contrary to section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

 

[najaB]

Thanks in advance for your help! I know. I'm an idiot!

Good, so we don't need to go there.

I wish I could say it's a "good news / bad news" situation but this is all bad news, unfortunately.

By reusing a carnet ticket you have opened yourself up to prosecution under either the Regulation of Railways Act or the Railway Consolidation Clauses Act. Conviction under either of these would result in a criminal record.

And based on the evidence the TOC has in hand - the ticket - you would almost certainly be found guilty. (I can't actually see any way you wouldn't be.)

So your one and only goal is to avoid this getting to court. You can do this by convincing the railway's prosecutors of two things: that you know how badly you have screwed up and will never ever do it again (thereby removing the need for punitive action) and that you understand and are willing to compensate them for their losses (thereby removing the need for restorative action).

We can give you some advice on how to achieve this, and the nature and amount of any losses if you let us know what stations were involved and how many times you reused the ticket.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Yes i'm an idiot.
I was travelling from Baldock to Kings Cross.
Anything I can do to avoid going to court/getting a criminal record I will happily do.
I will never ever do this again.
Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[najaB]

I was travelling from Baldock to Kings Cross.

So to start with, the loss aspect of any settlement would be £15.70 for each time you reused the ticket. Do you remember how many times you used it?

 

[Haywain]

I admitted not guilty to him as lots of commuters were within earshot.

Did you admit guilt, or not?

So to start with, the loss aspect of any settlement would be £15.70 for each time you reused the ticket. Do you remember how many times you used it?

I would advise caution before answering this in a public forum. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the TOC's prosecutions team are aware of this forum. Also, if the answer is several times they may feel that this happens with each carnet, and take a harder line.

 

[najaB]

I would advise caution before answering this in a public forum. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the TOC's prosecutions team are aware of this forum. Also, if the answer is several times they may feel that this happens with each carnet, and take a harder line.

That is a fair point - do the maths in you head to get an idea of the loss component of any settlement.

 

[Clip]

First of all you need to sit tight and wait for them to contact you with what they want to do with you.

But yes, start saving.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Hello,

Thanks for all your input. Would you all agree with Clip and recommend that I best wait for that dreaded letter to come through before doing anything. I feel so bad about this and I really don't want to get a criminal record for being so stupid. I am starting to save already. Thanks again for all your input, considering how stupid I've been.

 

[455driver]

There is nothing to be done until they send you a letter explaining exactly what you are being charged with (my money is on RORA section 5 because it was a deliberate act on your part) and it is only then you can throw yourself at their mercy, apologise profusely request an out of Court settlement, for now just keep saving.

This next bit isnt meant as a dig but as a thought provoker-
Would you be so quick to try and defraud other companies or is it just the train company you are happy to defraud?

 

[Zeitgeist]

Thanks for your advice 455 driver. I take it when I receive the dreaded letter I should get in touch with a solicitor too!

Even if your last comment was a dig. I wouldn't be offended at all. I deserve that. I would not be quick to defraud anyone. What I did was stupid and I took a chance/risk. NEVER, EVER will I do anything so stupid!

 

[najaB]

Thanks for all your input. Would you all agree with Clip and recommend that I best wait for that dreaded letter to come through before doing anything.

Yes, as there is little you can do until it does except start saving. If you want an idea of how expensive this could be, take the figure you worked out in my last post to you and add £300 as a rough estimate of the TOC's costs.

 

[455driver]

Thanks for your advice 455 driver. I take it when I receive the dreaded letter I should get in touch with a solicitor too!

Holdoff on the Solicitor, there are still a lot of things you can do yourself (with further advice from the experts on here (not me ).

It depends what the letter says, there is a slim (and I mean very slim) chance (if you are apologetic enough, explain you are now aware how serious this is, you wont do anything similar etc etc) that they might decide to offer you an out of court settlement, as I say it is a very slim chance but as the TOC would get to keep all the money it is in their interests financially to do it, of course the letter you send would have to make it very clear how sorry you are etc.

Keep saving but try not to dwell on it, nothing is going to change until the letter arrives which could take a few months.

 

[najaB]

Holdoff on the Solicitor, there are still a lot of things you can do yourself (with further advice from the experts on here (not me ).

To second this advice, it's entirely possible that the TOC will write to you offering an immediate settlement. It's by no means certain that you'll be needing legal counsel.

Keep saving but try not to dwell on it, nothing is going to change until the letter arrives which could take a few months.

This is the most important advice - try your best not to let worrying about what will happen next take over your life.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It depends what the letter says, there is a slim (and I mean very slim) chance (if you are apologetic enough, explain you are now aware how serious this is, you wont do anything similar etc etc) that they might decide to offer you an out of court settlement, as I say it is a very slim chance

I think that stating the chance as very slim is extremely unhelpful and likely only intended to scare the OP. The vast majority of posters to this board are offered a settlement.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think that stating the chance as very slim is extremely unhelpful and likely only intended to scare the OP. The vast majority of posters to this board are offered a settlement.

I disagree. While a 'vast majority of posters to this board' may manage to agree a settlement, that 'vast majority' are not being investigated for carnet abuse. In fact, repeated carnet abuse is sometimes a subject for a face to face interview in an attempt to quantify the full extent of the Company's losses over time.

What is helpful to Zeitgeist is the truth, and it is true that carnet abuse may result in a mutually accepted settlement, or may not - and whichever outcome, it may not get there without an interview under Caution. The subject of that interview would be travel patterns and ticket buying patterns.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I can't be bothered to check, but I'd bet that the vast majority of the subset of posters to this board who are being investigated for carnet abuse, too, secure settlements. Nothing you say is strictly wrong, and the OP has of course done something very stupid; but I must question the motives of people making posts like you have, which seems to me to have been crafted to scare the OP more than to help them.

 

[najaB]

I can't be bothered to check, but I'd bet that the vast majority of the subset of posters to this board who are being investigated for carnet abuse, too, secure settlements.

Fortunately they aren't that common. I think that DaveNewcastle is quite possibly basing his statement on cases that he has encountered outside the confines of this forum.

 

[Greenback]

I wouldn't like to say either way what the chances are. The decision on whether to prosecute or not will depend on several factors, some of which I may not know about.

The best advice, I think, is to contact the TOC and see what happens.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Thanks all again for your advice. 455driver & najab. I will sit tight and wait until the letter comes and act accordingly. I really do hope it's a fine and nothing else but after getting up to speed with this post it could go so many different ways. I will try to not worry until the letter comes. From what people are saying March is the earliest month I will get to hear from them. The train company is Great Northern. I have read so much about FCC (the previous TOC) and it worries me immensely. I hope Great Northern fine me so I can pay them and draw a line under this very sorry self inflicted episode in my life. If I could only turn back time. Anyway, what's done is done. I was very cooperative with the inspector even though I fibbed and said I wasnt using the card improperly (yes I know, what was I thinking, but I didn't want to admit liability on a crowded train with lots of people listening in staring at me). Not sure if me being cooperative will be taken into account (highly doubt it). In the meantime I'll be saving hard to hopefully pay off this stupid stupid mistake.

 

[Darandio]

I can't be bothered to check, but I'd bet that the vast majority of the subset of posters to this board who are being investigated for carnet abuse, too, secure settlements.

Let's take a look at a small sample shall we, although in the majority of cases the OP doesn't return after the initial forum correspondence, or at least never returns with the outcome. This is a typical situation in the D&P section of course, many are unhappy to be told what they don't want to hear.

All threads are carnet related, but they obviously cover varying circumstances.

February 2012 - OP Didn't Return
May 2012 - OP Didn't Return
July 2012 - OP Didn't Return
August 2012 - OP Didn't Return
January 2013 - OP Didn't Return
February 2013 - OP Didn't Return
July 2013 - OP Didn't Return
April 2014 - OP Didn't Return
July 2014 - OP Didn't Return
April 2015 - OP Didn't Return
December 2015 - OP Didn't Return
December 2015 - OP Didn't Return

There are cases where they do return and have reached a settlement of some kind, won an appeal or the matter was dropped.

August 2013 - Possible Settlement Reached, OP Never Confirmed
October 2013 - Won Appeal
June 2014 - Settlement Reached
July 2014 - Case Dropped

The above is only a small sample of what actually turns out to be a load of carnet cases discussed here. Does it show that the vast majority secure a settlement? Not at all, most never return to give the good (or bad) news.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think that DaveNewcastle is quite possibly basing his statement on cases that he has encountered outside the confines of this forum.

Indeed.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Thanks all for your feedback. 455driver and najaB. I will sit tight and wait for the letter to come through. I believe it will be at least 2 months before I hear anything so it won't be easy. I wish I could just go back in time and change what has occurred, but what's happened has happened. I just hope that what I get is a penalty, although after getting up to speed with the level of activity on this thread, it's not looking good as per Darandio's findings on this site. I could say those that didn't respond didn't have to go to court and were relieved to have settled, but I doubt that was very much the case. I will get saving right now and hope that it's a costly penalty to pay and that's the end of that but I am expecting the worst and dread the day I receive that letter. All I know is that I want to draw a line under this stupid, stupid, self inflicted mess I got myself into.

I did cooperate with the train inspector and gave all my details although as you all know I did fib stating I was using the card appropriately and did not tamper with it (it was a busy peak train and so many people were looking and eavesdropping on what was being said that I said no) yet again a stupid move but I felt like such an idiot. I doubt being cooperative will count for anything as a crime is a crime. I will do anything I can to just pay a penalty, even provide an anonymous true life testimonial (for what it's worth) on why you should not chance something so idiotic like what I've done.

It is my first time offence (and definitely my last) will that count for anything?

Any further advice is greatly appreciated and I will keep you all posted. Thanks all for your comments, greatly appreciated!

 

[455driver]

I doubt being cooperative will count for anything as a crime is a crime.

Oh it can make a lot of difference, the TOCs are much more likely to be lenient if you pass the good old 'attitude test' than if you failed it.

As for the fib, nobody is likely to admit the 'crime' straight away are they!

 

[najaB]

I doubt being cooperative will count for anything as a crime is a crime
...
It is my first time offence (and definitely my last) will that count for anything?

Both of these actually do count for something, the TOC is much more likely to deal with the matter by way of a settlement if you are cooperative, and even if they don't the court will impose smaller fines on cooperative defendants (e.g. a 'discount' on the fine for early guilty plea).

 

[Zeitgeist]

455driver and najab thanks for that. It sounds somewhat reassuring that that would be taken into consideration as I thought they would be more black and white about it. I really hope ( i know I keep banging on about this) it is a fine related offence. I will 100% cooperate and do whatever it takes. The inspector pulled me to the side and said he wanted to handle this discreetly, which was fortunate considering he could have majorly (and rightly so) humiliated me in front of all those passengers. He took my ticket as evidence as he said he needed to run it through to see how many times it had been used.

The waiting for that letter is gonna be tough but I just have to try to not worry about this, easier said than done let me tell you!

 

[Zeitgeist]

Right all. I had a letter waiting for me last night from the Prosecutions Department. It's the Notice of intention to prosecute. I did not sleep well at all last night and rightly so for what I stupidly did.

They have asked me to be factual and honest. Of course, I am going to be honest. This is no way an excuse and ever since my encounter with the revenue protection inspector I rue the day I did this. So, so, stupid.

Now I have the letter, i'm weirdly relieved because I can now face the matter. Should I be getting hold of a solicitor?

I feel so anxious, especially after reading the list of possible consequences for what I have done.

I would again appreciate any advice on this matter on how best to proceed. Thanks in advance.

 

[CheesyChips]

The first thing to remember is that you haven't killed anybody and unless you have a shady past we don't know about, everything is going to feel very administrative, you're unlikely to leave the court in shackles, if the matter even gets anywhere near a court.

It may be worth speaking to a solicitor, perhaps just the initial consult just to see if there are any gems of advice you could benefit from.

Before you send your reply, make sure you run it past the more experienced members on this forum who will make sure you've used your reply to the greatest advantage.

With regards to the possible consequences that are on the letter you've received, try not to assume the most serious consequence will apply to you, as I'm sure you've already begun to assume

 

[Haywain]

Simple advice really: send them a letter being factual about what happened and honest about how stupid you realise you have been and what you have learnt, and ask if you can reach a settlement on the matter without going to court, acknowledging that they will have incurred costs in getting this far.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Hi

Thanks so much for your responses. Over the weekend I am going to work on composing a factual and unreservedly apologetic letter stating why I did it. Once I have done my draft I will post on here. I hope those with experience of such matters see this post and offer their expertise, it would be so greatly appreciated. I think I will tap up a solicitor on Monday to see what gems they can offer me. I am such an idiot, if only the clock could be turned back, if only!