Return to normality - a double edged sword?

[DB]

It really doesn't. Most people do not travel abroad often, and a considerable number don't ever (i.e. do not own passports). My mind utterly boggles as to why people would prefer to accept all the social distancing faff (or risk posed by the virus, if you advocate abolition) over simply not taking a couple of trips a year abroad and having to take them domestically instead.

You are presenting a false either/or here yet again! Removing the current restrictions is not tied to border controls. We know that you are a big fan of New Zealand, but as a country heavily reliant on international tourism they won't be able to keep it up for very long.

And as regards going abroad, I don't, so not being able to would make absolutely no difference to me - but I can see how important international travel is to the economy so preventing that (or imposing quarantines which will kill off much international travel) is not workable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stop peddling this myth

It's not a myth, it's a fact. New Zealand (and the Isle of Man, and at least some of the Channel Islands) have successfully eliminated the virus, closed borders and removed all (or very nearly all) social distancing measures. I'm sure @Tetchytyke who lives on the IoM will confirm that for there, I don't think we have a resident Kiwi?

 

[DB]

It's not a myth, it's a fact. New Zealand (and the Isle of Man, and at least some of the Channel Islands) have successfully eliminated the virus, closed borders and removed all (or very nearly all) social distancing measures. I'm sure @Tetchytyke who lives on the IoM will confirm that for there, I don't think we have a resident Kiwi?

All with fairly or very small populations
All reliant on tourism to quite an extent.

Do you seriously believe that keeping their borders closed is a viable strategy for more than six months to a year at most?

 

[jtuk]

It's not a myth, it's a fact. New Zealand (and the Isle of Man, and at least some of the Channel Islands) have successfully eliminated the virus, closed borders and removed all (or very nearly all) social distancing measures. I'm sure @Tetchytyke who lives on the IoM will confirm that for there, I don't think we have a resident Kiwi?

I would not call being able to leave the country on the assumption that a virus has been eliminated anything like normality, especially with the assumption that in a year or so the country will be broke and we're in some sort of Mad Max style dystopia fighting over the remaining resources of sheep, Steinlager and Split Enz LPs

 

[Bletchleyite]

All with fairly or very small populations
All reliant on tourism to quite an extent.

Do you seriously believe that keeping their borders closed is a viable strategy for more than six months to a year at most?

Yes, I do.

I would not call being able to leave the country on the assumption that a virus has been eliminated anything like normality, especially with the assumption that in a year or so the country will be broke and we're in some sort of Mad Max style dystopia fighting over the remaining resources of sheep, Steinlager and Split Enz LPs

To me, it's more important that what I do day to day is normal. Holidays are much less important to me. I would like to take a foreign holiday but I'm just going to leave it, provisionally, until next year (maybe the year after) as appropriate to the situation.

So I'd much rather be able to walk round Tesco (or take a long train journey for the purposes of enjoyment) without a mask on and without distancing than I would be able to go for a weekend in mainland Europe, or indeed the trip to Israel I was going to be taking at the end of August.

Regrettably, I don't think anyone who thinks I should be able to do both of those things has any grounding in reality at all.

 

[NorthOxonian]

As does my point - that the entertainments industry (both with regard to live entertainment and nightclubs) is totally non-viable with social distancing, and therefore it's a choice between an orderly wind-down and the businesses just collapsing?

Here's the problem though - what happens when the virus is no longer a serious threat (whether thanks to widespread vaccination, or an effective treatment, or its prevalence falling dramatically)?

In your proposed world, all the nightclubs, live music venues, theatres, and other cultural venues will have gone out of business. Their premises have been sold off, and probably turned into luxury flats. These sorts of venues would probably never come back, leading to a more spartan existence for everyone. Social distancing won't last forever, but an industry collapsing would be far more permanent. How would you ensure we don't lose entertainment venues forever?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

what they should be doing is putting protections in place for those who are medically at risk

We can't keep them protected for ever, they also have a life to live.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In your proposed world, all the nightclubs, live music venues, theatres, and other cultural venues will have gone out of business. Their premises have been sold off, and probably turned into luxury flats. These sorts of venues would probably never come back, leading to a more spartan existence for everyone. Social distancing won't last forever, but an industry collapsing would be far more permanent. How would you ensure we don't lose entertainment venues forever?

Perhaps a scheme could be put in place (which would create some jobs) to protect and secure such "reserved" entertainment venues for future use?

Another option would be the ability to do this and then make the companies owning them effectively dormant but able to be restarted.

 

[Richard Scott]

Because that option (to simply remove all social distancing now) is so far fetched that it is just not going to happen so there is no point even including it.

One exception, but you won't like it. We crack down hard and eliminate the virus (or at least get it down to single figures of cases a day, and go properly strict on quarantining anyone found to have it in a Government facility until they have had three negative tests in a row), and close our borders. Then it can all come back, probably within 2-3 months.

Here we go again, the elimination strategy. How many times do you have to be told it's not possible. This virus is here to stay and a number of us have realised we need to learn to live with it. Let's get on with life theatres and all, like we have done for years with colds, flu etc. Human race has overcome more serious diseases than this without resorting to panic, lockdowns, face masks etc. Let's get back to normal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here we go again, the elimination strategy. How many times do you have to be told it's not possible. This virus is here to stay and a number of us have realised we need to learn to live with it. Let's get on with life theatres and all, like we have done for years with colds, flu etc. Human race has overcome more serious diseases than this without resorting to panic, lockdowns, face masks etc. Let's get back to normal.

You're entitled to that opinion, but it won't be what happens, so you would do best to accept that.

 

[Richard Scott]

You're entitled to that opinion, but it won't be what happens, so you would do best to accept that.

Nor will your options work either. I'd hate to live in the world you propose, can't see anyone smile as all got face masks, all theatres are closed, no live performances, all pupils in schools are only there to learn that life isn't fair. You make George Orwell's 1984 look inviting. I'm not accepting your ideas as they're just misery inducing and some of us are miserable enough with the silly paranoia. The majority of population will eventually realise this and we will return to normal.

 

[DB]

We can't keep them protected for ever, they also have a life to live.

No, but they could be protected until there was a reasonable level of herd immunity in the general population - which seems to be the way Sweden is heading.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nor will your options work either. I'd hate to live in the world you propose, can't see anyone smile as all got face masks, all theatres are closed, no live performances, all pupils in schools are only there to learn that life isn't fair. You make George Orwell's 1984 look inviting. I'm not accepting your ideas as they're just misery inducing and some of us are miserable enough with the silly paranoia. The majority of population will eventually realise this and we will return to normal.

Umm, you're living in that world now. Good luck with getting rid of it...

 

[DB]

Yes, I do.

OK, fair enough.

So hwo do you reckon they are going to make up the massive shorfall from lack of tourism and trade from outside their borders?

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, fair enough.

So hwo do you reckon they are going to make up the massive shorfall from lack of tourism and trade from outside their borders?

Are we talking NZ or UK here? If we're talking UK, domestic tourism will take up a lot of it (try and book a hotel in the Lakes this weekend, good luck with that! ). I'm not familiar enough with the NZ economy to see how it'd work there, but if Oz manages to eliminate then there's a potential "air bridge" there.

 

[DB]

Are we talking NZ or UK here? If we're talking UK, domestic tourism will take up a lot of it (try and book a hotel in the Lakes this weekend, good luck with that! ). I'm not familiar enough with the NZ economy to see how it'd work there, but if Oz manages to eliminate then there's a potential "air bridge" there.

NZ as you are so keen on it - it relies heavily on international tourism, and wouldn't be able to make up a great deal of it domestically as it has a fairly small population. Australia is nowhere near eliminating it, and probably won't get there as it's a massive country with several fairly large cities. Sounds like basically you have no solution to suggest...

UK - no doubt domestic tourism will work really well when there's a deep recession and loads of people have lost their jobs. Getting a hotel in the lake district in August at the last minute is always going to be unlikely, so nothing there has changed. Even with borders closed, I don't imagine they will be inundated with bookings in February!

 

[yorksrob]

Major events have changed all sorts work/leisure issues over the centuries. Each time, there's no going back just to find out that the rest of the world has moved on. Eventually the inertia of some in society is just ignored.

If major events force the population to change ways that are fundamental to western society, such as the right and ability to associate freely, the more important it is to ensure that any disruption to the Western way of life is as limited and short as possible.

We have a right and a duty to ensure that our fundamental way of life is defended into the future.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm sure @Tetchytyke who lives on the IoM will confirm that for there

All domestic social distancing rules are gone here. No masks, no rules on gatherings, no pre-booking tables at pubs. I was at Peel Carnival last weekend, on the beach with a pint listening to live music. There were carnival floats, a procession. Dancers. A carnival queen.

It's as normal as you're going to get.

Physical goods are traded freely- a UK stevedore reverses unaccompanied HGV trailers on to the Ben my Chree, and a Manx stevedore reverses them off again in Douglas, and vice versa.

The Manx economy, as a tax haven, is largely based on insurance, gambling and e-commerce. Tourism is not really that important, certainly not as it was; cheap package holidays to Spain mostly saw to that. Much of the financial sector are based here purely because of tax; the big execs don't actually need to come here to visit their money.

The payoff is that we have to quarantine for two weeks when we come back, if we leave. Essential workers can come on to the island with government approval- notably specialist construction workers- but must quarantine when not at work and must leave as soon as their job is done.

It's certainly not ideal, but actually day-to-day life is pretty much normal. I've been at a barbecue this afternoon and we could sit together and our children could play together.

I really wouldn't be in any rush to swap the quality of my day-to-day life for a free border but more domestic restrictions.

 

[yorksrob]

All domestic social distancing rules are gone here. No masks, no rules on gatherings, no pre-booking tables at pubs. I was at Peel Carnival last weekend, on the beach with a pint listening to live music. There were carnival floats, a procession. Dancers. A carnival queen.

It's as normal as you're going to get.

Physical goods are traded freely- a UK stevedore reverses unaccompanied HGV trailers on to the Ben my Chree, and a Manx stevedore reverses them off again in Douglas, and vice versa.

The Manx economy, as a tax haven, is largely based on insurance, gambling and e-commerce. Tourism is not really that important, certainly not as it was; cheap package holidays to Spain mostly saw to that. Much of the financial sector are based here purely because of tax; the big execs don't actually need to come here to visit their money.

The payoff is that we have to quarantine for two weeks when we come back, if we leave. Essential workers can come on to the island with government approval- notably specialist construction workers- but must quarantine when not at work and must leave as soon as their job is done.

It's certainly not ideal, but actually day-to-day life is pretty much normal. I've been at a barbecue this afternoon and we could sit together and our children could play together.

I really wouldn't be in any rush to swap the quality of my day-to-day life for a free border but more domestic restrictions.

Yes, if it were available to me, I would agree with your position.

 

[bramling]

If major events force the population to change ways that are fundamental to western society, such as the right and ability to associate freely, the more important it is to ensure that any disruption to the Western way of life is as limited and short as possible.

We have a right and a duty to ensure that our fundamental way of life is defended into the future.

I’m not sure what sort of utopia people feel we should be embracing with this. Apart from home working, which isn’t an option for everyone and I suspect is something of a fad which will wither away over time for a number of reasons, what else is there that’s particularly good that’s come out of this that’s sustainable?

I’m sure there’s some delusional types who want an everlasting paid bank holiday, but despite Sunak’s best efforts to be Mr Popular it simply isn’t going to happen.

At the moment we’ve trashed the country’s finances and haven’t really even started to think about how that’s going to be resolved longer term, and all for a virus where for most people the only symptom is feeling just fine?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I’m not sure what sort of utopia people feel we should be embracing with this. Apart from home working, which isn’t an option for everyone and I suspect is something of a fad which will wither away over time for a number of reasons, what else is there that’s particularly good that’s come out of this that’s sustainable?

Increased awareness of personal hygiene. Or at least I hope so. For example, I was astounded to see that 2 out of 5 males using the toilet in a Wetherspoons a week before lockdown left without washing their hands.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m not sure what sort of utopia people feel we should be embracing with this. Apart from home working, which isn’t an option for everyone and I suspect is something of a fad which will wither away over time for a number of reasons, what else is there that’s particularly good that’s come out of this that’s sustainable?

I’m sure there’s some delusional types who want an everlasting paid bank holiday, but despite Sunak’s best efforts to be Mr Popular it simply isn’t going to happen.

At the moment we’ve trashed the country’s finances and haven’t really even started to think about how that’s going to be resolved longer term, and all for a virus where for most people the only symptom is feeling just fine?

I don't think it's an issue of furlough (those I know were on it would have preferred to have been working)

I think we have guidelines that tell citizens that they are not allowed tosocialise with other citizens, other than perhaps wandering over a dale.

The economic situation is obviously a massive implication, and hopefully it will lead us to re-evaluate our over-dependance on authoritarian countries, however I am most concerned about maintaining our traditional liberties.

 

[MikeWM]

You can get a proper "wall wart" fitted (why do the manufacturers not make any effort to make them look nice?) with an outlet in your room if you want, though that'll cost more. Problem with that being that the external unit can be noisy and so your neighbours may hate you.

For the amount I'm using it, simple enough to just open the window wide enough to put the hose through, and close the curtains around it. For people who rent, I guess they'd have to do that rather than drill holes in the walls but it works fine.

The outlet isn't especially noisy, though worth pointing out that the unit itself is fairly loud when operating, which may annoy some people. I'm annoyed by noise in general, but this sort of white noise I have no issues with.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

The problem is that it, unlike most other industries, has no COVID-secure form, i.e. it will only become viable again once all social distancing can fully be abolished.

So I think my opinion is perhaps that funding should be provided for an orderly wind-down (i.e. so the businesses don't collapse but are instead closed in a controlled manner, with some sort of lump sum payment for those who will lose jobs), but it isn't really possible to fund its continuation for what could be years. Airlines are similar.

So you are happy with the complete destruction of the theatre, events, exhibition, conference and live music industries then?

Once the theatres and venues close, the hire companies and the rest of the supply chain are gone and the thousands of staff disperse there is no going back.
If there is not enough support to preserve the industry there simply won't be a restart
Want to stage a concert next summer? good luck hiring a PA or backline or lights or staging or ticketing or merch or stewarding or concessions as there won't be anybody left to supply

 

[Scrotnig]

Umm, you're living in that world now. Good luck with getting rid of it...

Why are you so happy about this? It's disturbing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you are happy with the complete destruction of the theatre, events, exhibition, conference and live music industries then?

I'm not happy with it, no, but other than the abolition of all measures now and allowing the virus to run riot, I fail to see any realistic alternative. Do you? Don't propose the former as it is simply not happening. Forget it. It is not a thing, not an option, not going to happen. It exists only on Web forums, Twitter and the hard-right press.

This whole thing is about "least worst". There are no good options.

Why are you so happy about this? It's disturbing.

I'm not in the remotest bit happy about it. I do however accept it as there is nothing I can realistically do to change it, so I have to live in the context of it. I can choose to be happy doing so, or miserable doing so. The former seems less of a drag.

Consider how people lived during wars, which are a whole lot worse than this.

 

[Bantamzen]

It's not a myth, it's a fact. New Zealand (and the Isle of Man, and at least some of the Channel Islands) have successfully eliminated the virus, closed borders and removed all (or very nearly all) social distancing measures. I'm sure @Tetchytyke who lives on the IoM will confirm that for there, I don't think we have a resident Kiwi?

Yes it is, look up their current rates and you'll still the virus is still there. You really need to let this myth go once and for all.

 

[adc82140]

Consider how people lived during wars, which are a whole lot worse than this.

During the war there wasn't a great deal of choice. We were being bombed by an enemy state. All of this has been brought on by the decisions of our own government. I could ask what has happened to the British stiff upper lip and resilience, as we've become a load of cowering wrecks. How demeaning that is for a once great nation.

 

[birchesgreen]

During the war there wasn't a great deal of choice. We were being bombed by an enemy state. All of this has been brought on by the decisions of our own government. I could ask what has happened to the British stiff upper lip and resilience, as we've become a load of cowering wrecks. How demeaning that is for a once great nation.

British stiff upper lip is a myth to be honest

 

[yorkie]

The idea that parts of the entertainment industry, such as theatres, will be abolished for "years" is absurd. It isn't going to happen.