Return Ticket Purchased in Reverse and Penalty Fared

[railfail101101]

Going to keep this as anonymous as possible.

So, basically I worked out that buying a return ticket in reverse works out cheaper. E.g. if my station is X and im travelling to Y, I would buy a return ticket from Y to X. This would mean I would need to use my outbound journey as my return journey but it wouldnt work on the barriers.

The first time it happened it was a genuine accident and I showed the Revenue Officer what happened and he said it was fine. This lead me to believe that because I had a ticket which covered both directions of my journey which the Rev Officer was fine with it and I’d simply stumbled onto a glitch in the trainline app. Ive done this now many times and each time the Rev Off let me through the barriers with no issue. Theyve scanned the tickets at the departure station, on the train and at the arrival station and its never been an issue… not even a “dont do that again”. There are always Rev Offs at both the station I depart from and arrive at and every time I have had an encounter with them and they let me through.

Recently (not saying the day haha) I got a penalty fine and was told that by using the return ticket first I am making the outbound ticket invalid. I paid the penalty fine but am worried that it will result in them checking my trainline account further and seeing all the other journeys in my account and taking further action.

Is this likely to happen? They cant prove I actually used the tickets, but its pretty obvious I used them unless I claim to have either cycled down the motorway or learned to fly.

Would the fact that previous Rev Offs allowed me to use the ticket in this way help my defence?

Would the fact that Ive paid the penalty fine help, as it means the case is closed on the only invalid ticket that ive been caught using?

I haven’t been sent a notice of investigation but want to be prepared in case i do.

Thanks everyone for your advice

 

[AlterEgo]

Recently (not saying the day haha) I got a penalty fine and was told that by using the return ticket first I am making the outbound ticket invalid.

Were you penalty fared on the outbound (the first train) or the return (the second train)? This makes a lot of difference as to whether you can appeal.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

It's always been the case that the outward portion of a ticket is only valid if presented with the unused return portion. In reality people are rarely asked to show the return portion when the outward ticket is checked but barcode ticketing makes this sort of thing much easier to detect.

It is also the case sometimes tickets are priced differently depending on the direction. On my local line this is the case - it's more expensive to travel towards London in the morning peak than away from London.

If you've paid a Penalty Fare the train company can't take any further action in respect of that incident. It is possible that they could research your Trainline ticket purchasing account and identify cases where you have done this before, and write to you with some further questions.

If you can tell us which train company you're dealing with we can advise whether or not this is more likely or not.

 

[railfail101101]

Were you penalty fared on the outbound (the first train) or the return (the second train)? This makes a lot of difference as to whether you can appeal.

I was penatly fared returning (using the outbound which I guess had been made invalid)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2024 ==

Welcome to the forum!

It's always been the case that the outward portion of a ticket is only valid if presented with the unused return portion. In reality people are rarely asked to show the return portion when the outward ticket is checked but barcode ticketing makes this sort of thing much easier to detect.

It is also the case sometimes tickets are priced differently depending on the direction. On my local line this is the case - it's more expensive to travel towards London in the morning peak than away from London.

If you've paid a Penalty Fare the train company can't take any further action in respect of that incident. It is possible that they could research your Trainline ticket purchasing account and identify cases where you have done this before, and write to you with some further questions.

If you can tell us which train company you're dealing with we can advise whether or not this is more likely or not.

Southwestern railway was the company I was using. How come none of the other Rev Officers mentioned this? Like I said I've had to pass them every time and theyve scanned the ticket on their machine but never said anything.

If they write to me is it better to keep quiet or explain everything truthfully? I dont want to incriminate myself and aside from the time they caught me they dont have explicit proof that I used the other tickets. Its just likely that i did

 

[Hadders]

I can't explain why you've not been spoken to before about this.

If they do contact you about previous instances then come back here and upload a copy of the letter, with personal details redacted, and we can assist in how to respond.

 

[furlong]

If you got a Penalty Fare then you might consider following the process to make an appeal, arguing that you weren't aware it was a problem and clearly neither were any of the other rail employees who previously allowed you to do this without comment - in other words that it's clearly routinely not being enforced (provide evidence to support this) and consequently you were entitled to form the view that the train company permitted / condoned what you were doing and consequently the train company has lost the ability to penalise you as the contract may be deemed to have been modified to allow this. (Then throw in the usual Penalty Fare appeal arguments about inadequate signage which is almost always true.)

Of course the risk is that this might draw their attention to your previous journeys and they might try to make you pay extra for them too.

 

[railfail101101]

If you got a Penalty Fare then you might consider following the process to make an appeal, arguing that you weren't aware it was a problem and clearly neither were any of the other rail employees who previously allowed you to do this without comment - in other words that it's clearly routinely not being enforced (provide evidence to support this) and consequently you were entitled to form the view that the train company permitted / condoned what you were doing and consequently the train company has lost the ability to penalise you as the contract may be deemed to have been modified to allow this. (Then throw in the usual Penalty Fare appeal arguments about inadequate signage which is almost always true.)

Of course the risk is that this might draw their attention to your previous journeys and they might try to make you pay extra for them too.

Thanks for your advice.

So, ive already paid the penalty fare in order to close the case on that particular event. I did that after reading in a forum that TOCs may withdraw the initial penalty fare after finding other suspicious activity, knowing that chance of conviction on the events I wasnt actually “caught” on would be harder to convict, but they only need to convict on the event that I was caught, so they could use that to strong arm me.

What I am looking to understand is if they approach me about the other occasions, does the fact that Rev Officers didnt take any action, despite me needing them to open the gates for me each and every time, give me grounds to say “if they didnt care, why would I think Im doing anything wrong?”

If/when I get a letter I will share here. I was just wondering what the chances of them exploring my account is and if I have any grounds to beat it?

 

[BRX]

To reasonably form an opinion that the revenue officers were accepting what you were doing, you'd have to be confident that when they let you through the barriers, they knew what issue had been flagged up with your ticket - is that the case?

 

[railfail101101]

To reasonably form an opinion that the revenue officers were accepting what you were doing, you'd have to be confident that when they let you through the barriers, they knew what issue had been flagged up with your ticket - is that the case?

On occasion, but not always, they would scan with the gun and either let me through or asked me if id used the ticket in the morning. To which I would reply “yes, i bought the ticket backward”. This is how the revenue officer identified the issue when I was given the penalty fare.

Other times they just looked at the ticket and let me through.

The issue is how do I prove that? Other than saying at both my entry and exit points there have always been revenue officers who should be checking the tickets.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Looking to the future, check what sort of ticket you have been buying. If it’s a day return then what I say here won’t work. But if the return leg has longer validity (typically a month but some tickets are different) there’s nothing to stop you starting with a single ticket and then using returns.

To work an example:
You live at A
You travel to B, and return the same day.
You do this journey on Mondays and Wednesdays.
An A to B single ticket costs £10
An A to B period return costs £15
A B to A period return costs £13
Period returns in this example are valid to travel out on the day of purchase and back within a month.

Over a month (four weeks, travelling twice a week) buying A to B returns will cost £(15x4x2) = £120

But there’s nothing to stop you buying a £10 single from A to B on the first Monday, then buying a return from B to A on Monday evening. On Wednesday morning you use the return leg back to B, and buy another B to A return on Wednesday evening, and so on. At the end of the month you have spent £(13x4x2) + £10 = £114, and you go into the next month with your unused A to B return leg.

As your past tickets have been scanned, this won’t act as a defence for past journeys - the railway knows what tickets you used on which journeys - but it may save money in future.

 

[island]

If you got a Penalty Fare then you might consider following the process to make an appeal, arguing that you weren't aware it was a problem and clearly neither were any of the other rail employees who previously allowed you to do this without comment - in other words that it's clearly routinely not being enforced (provide evidence to support this) and consequently you were entitled to form the view that the train company permitted / condoned what you were doing and consequently the train company has lost the ability to penalise you as the contract may be deemed to have been modified to allow this. (Then throw in the usual Penalty Fare appeal arguments about inadequate signage which is almost always true.)

This is not advisable...

Of course the risk is that this might draw their attention to your previous journeys and they might try to make you pay extra for them too.

...for this exact reason.

If the OP was issued a Penalty Fare on their first journey (using the return half of the ticket) then that ticket was clearly valid and a PF shouldn't have been issued, but this seems like a "Don't poke the bear" case.

 

[Haywain]

Looking to the future, check what sort of ticket you have been buying. If it’s a day return then what I say here won’t work. But if the return leg has longer validity (typically a month but some tickets are different) there’s nothing to stop you starting with a single ticket and then using returns.

To work an example:
You live at A
You travel to B, and return the same day.
You do this journey on Mondays and Wednesdays.
An A to B single ticket costs £10
An A to B period return costs £15
A B to A period return costs £13
Period returns in this example are valid to travel out on the day of purchase and back within a month.

Over a month (four weeks, travelling twice a week) buying A to B returns will cost £(15x4x2) = £120

But there’s nothing to stop you buying a £10 single from A to B on the first Monday, then buying a return from B to A on Monday evening. On Wednesday morning you use the return leg back to B, and buy another B to A return on Wednesday evening, and so on. At the end of the month you have spent £(13x4x2) + £10 = £114, and you go into the next month with your unused A to B return leg.

As your past tickets have been scanned, this won’t act as a defence for past journeys - the railway knows what tickets you used on which journeys - but it may save money in future.

The OP appears to be talking about day returns.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The OP appears to be talking about day returns.

And having looked at Winchester to Waterloo tickets (a real life example where tickets from London to country can be cheaper than country to London) I should further warn that trying this scheme needs the user to thoroughly check restrictions: for example at first glance using a 'super off peak ' return from Waterloo to Winchester (so with Winchester to Waterloo as the return leg) seems appealing until you discover that the return leg can't be used 'on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01' - which is unhelpful for normal commuting.

 

[Watershed]

The OP appears to be talking about day returns.

Indeed. It is rare for there to be any significant difference in the price of period returns by direction, precisely because it would open up this kind of anomaly. That's aside from the fact that there is rarely an Anytime period return for short journeys.

 

[railfail101101]

And having looked at Winchester to Waterloo tickets (a real life example where tickets from London to country can be cheaper than country to London) I should further warn that trying this scheme needs the user to thoroughly check restrictions: for example at first glance using a 'super off peak ' return from Waterloo to Winchester (so with Winchester to Waterloo as the return leg) seems appealing until you discover that the return leg can't be used 'on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01' - which is unhelpful for normal commuting.

Out of interest, using your Winchester to Waterloo example and not with the super offpeak ticket. Are TOCs allowed to price discriminate in this way? As both trains would be travelling the same distance and during peak hours.

I know Trainline do some questionable price discriminating such as, if you buy a ticket via a discount affiliate site that offers 10% off, then trainline will up their price my 10% making for customer being directed to the website via those affiliate links making the discount redundant. I know many travel brands do this sort of thing.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Using only the return half of a ticket is valid is it not, provided the outward part is thrown away? When TOCs stupidly priced day returns at less than the price of a single, wasn't that a known anomaly that could be exploited?

 

[AlterEgo]

I know Trainline do some questionable price discriminating such as, if you buy a ticket via a discount affiliate site that offers 10% off, then trainline will up their price my 10% making for customer being directed to the website via those affiliate links making the discount redundant.

Citation needed for this one!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know Trainline do some questionable price discriminating such as, if you buy a ticket via a discount affiliate site that offers 10% off, then trainline will up their price my 10% making for customer being directed to the website via those affiliate links making the discount redundant. I know many travel brands do this sort of thing.

No, they don't, they are not capable of doing that. They can only sell the published fares, same as everyone else, they can't fiddle with them themselves.

You do have to work out if the discount is higher or lower than the Trainline fee though to see if it's worth it. I did get sent an offer by Trainline this week which just negated their fee near enough, there was no real discount over buying elsewhere where a fee is not charged.

Using only the return half of a ticket is valid is it not, provided the outward part is thrown away? When TOCs stupidly priced day returns at less than the price of a single, wasn't that a known anomaly that could be exploited?

Yes, using the return half only is fine, but doing so invalidates the outward half - the OP was caught travelling on the outward half having already used the return.

 

[nw1]

And having looked at Winchester to Waterloo tickets (a real life example where tickets from London to country can be cheaper than country to London) I should further warn that trying this scheme needs the user to thoroughly check restrictions: for example at first glance using a 'super off peak ' return from Waterloo to Winchester (so with Winchester to Waterloo as the return leg) seems appealing until you discover that the return leg can't be used 'on trains timed to arrive London Terminals after 04:29 and before 14:01' - which is unhelpful for normal commuting.

Before 14:01, this gets worse every few years! I guess it's a device to try and ensure that London day-trippers pay full whack, and can't "beat the system" by finding a cheap fare. Beyond 14:00 is arguably too late for daytripping, while a 12:30 arrival in London, for example, still gives a good number of hours.

It'll be 16:01 by the time we get to 2030, of course....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

... this seems like a "Don't poke the bear" case.

Quite! And not that this necessarily helps the OP, but was the issue of a Penalty Fare correct at the time? Seems that the OP likely knew what they were doing, so would a Ticket Irregularity Report have been more appropriate?

 

[railfail101101]

No, they don't, they are not capable of doing that. They can only sell the published fares, same as everyone else, they can't fiddle with them themselves.

You do have to work out if the discount is higher or lower than the Trainline fee though to see if it's worth it. I did get sent an offer by Trainline this week which just negated their fee near enough, there was no real discount over buying elsewhere where a fee is not charged.



Yes, using the return half only is fine, but doing so invalidates the outward half - the OP was caught travelling on the outward half having already used the return.

Ive worked in affiliate marketing and its relatively common knowledge that they do this. Which is why I stopped using cashback sites. Im not sure if theyve updated this but if you do a quick Google search “trainline dynamic pricing via affiliate links” and scroll down to the tripadvisor post it discusses another scenario where trainline have done something similar.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2024 ==

Quite! And not that this necessarily helps the OP, but was the issue of a Penalty Fare correct at the time? Seems that the OP likely knew what they were doing, so would a Ticket Irregularity Report have been more appropriate?

So if I get a penalty fare are SWR likely to investigate my account further? The rev officer didnt say they were going to but I thought Id ask here to see what are the chances?

Personally, I feel if what I was doing was wrong then previous revenue officers should have said something. Obviously, now that ive been told using the return first invalidates the outward journey I wont do it. But up until recently I believed holding a ticket for each direction had me covered

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ive worked in affiliate marketing and its relatively common knowledge that they do this. Which is why I stopped using cashback sites. Im not sure if theyve updated this but if you do a quick Google search “trainline dynamic pricing via affiliate links” and scroll down to the tripadvisor post it discusses another scenario where trainline have done something similar.

Continuing this here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pricing-when-used-via-affiliate-links.271056/

 

[Royston Vasey]

Recently (not saying the day haha) I got a penalty fine and was told that by using the return ticket first I am making the outbound ticket invalid. I paid the penalty fine but am worried that it will result in them checking my trainline account further and seeing all the other journeys in my account and taking further action.

Is this likely to happen? They cant prove I actually used the tickets, but its pretty obvious I used them unless I claim to have either cycled down the motorway or learned to fly.

If they're e-tickets, and they decide to investigate, they absolutely can if they've been scanned at any point. A failed scan on exit will also be recorded, whether or not you were let out by a human being.

 

[swt_passenger]

So if I get a penalty fare are SWR likely to investigate my account further? The rev officer didnt say they were going to but I thought Id ask here to see what are the chances?

Personally, I feel if what I was doing was wrong then previous revenue officers should have said something. Obviously, now that ive been told using the return first invalidates the outward journey I wont do it. But up until recently I believed holding a ticket for each direction had me covered

Were all the staff you dealt with proper “revenue protection officers” though? The ordinary Waterloo barrier staff who hang around platform ends probably aren’t trained to the same standard and may have missed the issue, ie you were lucky a few times..

 

[railfail101101]

Were all the staff you dealt with proper “revenue protection officers” though? The ordinary Waterloo barrier staff who hang around platform ends probably aren’t trained to the same standard and may have missed the issue, ie you were lucky a few times..

Not always but usually. At entry (50/50), on the train (usually the ticket guard) and at my exit station (almost always rev off). And I never hid what I did. Everytime when I leave my station the officer asks me to scan my outbound (which I now realise is invalid) then I explain I bought the ticket backward and they let me through.

In theory the fact that ive always scanned my outbound ticket when returning should show on the system, which should suggest that the gates were never open and it was a rev officer who let me through.

 

[wessexen]

It's a long time since I graced this forum, but I just wanted to point out one thing. Just be aware, staff DO read this forum (in my current role, I've seen staff read this forum on a daily basis). Staff also know each other, even in other TOCs and be careful what you say too.
It also sounds like you were caught out by one of the most eagled eyed Revenue protection staff of SWR.