Return price differs depending on direction of travel

[CheapAndNerdy]

Can anyone explain this to me?

When I travel from Norbury to Windsor ER the off-peak return is £9.00. While idly waiting at Windsor I checked ticket prices and was surprised to see that the same ticket in "reverse formation" was £10.60. Additionally I found a Super off-peak return for £8.50. Now I'm pretty sure that the gods of RPI would smite me if I bought one of those and used the tickets out of order, but why is this fare asymmetrical? It's the same TOCs (SWT and Southern) and the same trains.

 

[John @ home]

Many fares are asymmetrical, usually charging more in the direction of the greater peak flow. It's market forces, I'm afraid. The train companies are able to sell more expensive tickets if passenger know that the alternative is very congested roads. In the opposite direction, the roads may not be so congested.

 

[swt_passenger]

Can anyone explain this to me?

When I travel from Norbury to Windsor ER the off-peak return is £9.00. While idly waiting at Windsor I checked ticket prices and was surprised to see that the same ticket in "reverse formation" was £10.60. Additionally I found a Super off-peak return for £8.50. Now I'm pretty sure that the gods of RPI would smite me if I bought one of those and used the tickets out of order, but why is this fare asymmetrical? It's the same TOCs (SWT and Southern) and the same trains.

Quite common on suburban routes to have the peak flow direction higher priced towards London. Also in the particular case of SWT's SOP fares, they are only available in the 'towards London' direction.

IIRC the 'outward' Offpeak is normally the same price as, or very nearly the same as the 'inward' Super Offpeak. Because the SOP's purpose is to spread the peak demand, it isn't needed in the contra peak direction. Back when there was all the media hue and cry about SWT upping the price of the CDRs to bring in SOPs, it was never highlighted that it was a one way thing towards London...

 

[yorkie]

See previous discussion http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=473540 (August 2010)
and the one before that http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32190 (April 2010)
and the one before that! http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=30537 (February 2010) - more detailed discussion
(and there are probably several before that ...

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Thanks Yorkie. I consider myself admonished. Was so excited to share my "astonishing" observation that I couldn't type fast enough when I got home. In fact you're lucky I didn't start the post with "you're not going to believe this guys..."

 

[yorkie]

No problem It's one of those ones that crops up more often than you think - perhaps, as you say, because people think they've discovered something amazing!

I'm waiting for the next topic about two tickets of the same name (Off Peak Single) but one is about half the price of the other. I think we're due one of those again soon!

 

[penaltyfines]

Now I'm pretty sure that the gods of RPI would smite me if I bought one of those and used the tickets out of order

Not suggesting anyone tries it, as it breaches standard ticket conditions </disclaimer> but on all my travels I've never ever been asked to produce the unused return portion when using the outward portion of a ticket.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . but on all my travels I've never ever been asked to produce the unused return portion when using the outward portion of a ticket.

I have!

Not often, only once this year, but I have, exceptionally, also seen other passengers being asked to show their return ticket.

 

[yorkie]

The only time you are likely to be asked for the return portion (when using an outward) is when using the outward portion of an SOR, after the first day of validity (e.g. a ticket dated as valid from 16 Sept. to 21 Sept. being used on 17 Sept.)

 

[ainsworth74]

but on all my travels I've never ever been asked to produce the unused return portion when using the outward portion of a ticket.

I'm not sure anyone has to be honest I certainly have never been asked to show it and often I don't still have it! But my guess is if you were to try it sod's law would intervene and the Guard/RPI would suddenly decide to check!

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure anyone has to be honest I certainly have never been asked to show it and often I don't still have it! But my guess is if you were to try it sod's law would intervene and the Guard/RPI would suddenly decide to check!

Of course they have, but in my experience only in the circumstances I described above. I would probably expect to be asked in those circumstances, although I would be very surprised in any other circumstance (ticket checks would take twice as long!)

 

[MikeWh]

I'm not sure anyone has to be honest I certainly have never been asked to show it and often I don't still have it! But my guess is if you were to try it sod's law would intervene and the Guard/RPI would suddenly decide to check!

Why would you not have the unused portion of a return ticket?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . I certainly have never been asked to show it and often I don't still have it! But my guess is if you were to try it sod's law would intervene and the Guard/RPI would suddenly decide to check!

Why would you not have the unused portion of a return ticket?

Exactly!

Its so easy to complete a return journey without having both portions endorsed. That creates the risk of the devious abuse of the un-cancelled return ticket trying to re-use one half.

Its such a simple check to ask the passenger with an Outgoing ticket to produce the other portions too (its not as if they'd have an excuse for not having the ticket to get back again while still having to get back again!).

As MikeWh asks, isn't it exceptionally odd to be travelling Outwards on a Return without also having the means to return?

 

[ainsworth74]

As MikeWh asks, isn't it exceptionally odd to be travelling Outwards on a Return without also having the means to return?

I think I've misunderstood the discussion here, so you should probably just discount my above post as being waffle.

 

[yorkie]

It is surprisingly often cheaper to get a Return rather than a Single, in which case the passenger may understandably throw the unwanted portion away.

As I said before, expect to be asked on an SOR using it after the first day of validity - for the reasons Dave said that staff will want to check it hasn't already been used - but any other ticket and I'd be extremely surprised to be asked.

I've only ever been asked when on an SOR being used on a subsequent day of it's validity, and that didn't surprise me at all, because before simplification it was a rule (though not in the public domain at that time) that the outward was only valid with the unused return portion. Simplification has changed that, but hasn't changed what happens in reality in my experience.

 

[wintonian]

Was so excited to share my "astonishing" observation that I couldn't type fast enough when I got home.

So was I at the time!

 

[moonrakerz]

I'm waiting for the next topic about two tickets of the same name (Off Peak Single) but one is about half the price of the other. I think we're due one of those again soon!

Yeah ! Why does a Super Off Peak Return cost more than an Off Peak Return ??

 

[yorkie]

Yeah ! Why does a Super Off Peak Return cost more than an Off Peak Return ??

I've never known a Super Off Peak Return cost more than an Off Peak Return (at least not for the exact same routeing), however Super Off Peak Returns sometimes do cost more than Off Peak Day Returns (where both are available), and ATOC claim that the Super Off Peak will have more restrictions but this is not always the case! As for why? Because the system is a total mess.

 

[moonrakerz]

I've come across this a few times...perhaps it's an oddity to this route.

What makes it even odder is that the more expensive ticket cannot be used on some of the services that are available to the cheaper one.

The SOPR is valid "on any permitted route".
The OPR is valid " only for routes passing through Warminster or (my emphasis) Salisbury".
As ALL routes must pass through Warminster, the start point - the OPR must also be valid on any route. If the routing is checked (under changes), it does show routes via both PAD and WAT !!!

.........as you say it's a total mess ..........or am I missing something here ?

(I've just had a look at WMN - WAT to see what that said......... I won't go any further:- 3 different OPRs and 2 SOPRs !!!!!!!!!!! (£48.80 to £65)

My brain hurts - goodnight !

 

[tony_mac]

National rail says;

- Travel must involve passing through or changing at Warminster and Salisbury.

 

[moonrakerz]

FGW, from whom I buy my tickets says:

Do I believe the company who supplied my tickets - or the one who didn't supply my tickets ?

 

[yorkie]

Neither ticket is an OPR (Super Off Peak Return), the ticket codes are SVR (Off Peak Return) and SSR (Super Off Peak Return), and SOPR doesn't exist (all codes are 3-letter). Ticket codes are, since Simplification, more un-simple than ever, this is in line with ATOC policy. I suggest avoiding use of abbreviations for tickets unless you are sure it's correct (ie, shown in Avantix Traveller).

As for whether "Warmster-Salsbry" is both or just one of them, my advice is to book on the site that is least restrictive (FGW), print off the relevant screenshots, and if asked to pay more, refuse to do so, providing the guard with the relevant printouts. Get a UPFN if necessary and refuse to pay it. Once money is handed over it's very difficult to get it back.

The ticketing system is a mess, I think ATOC are quite proud of how difficult it is to understand, and I think they enjoy seeing people get confused. The people who come out with such classics as the "simple" logo, and you can "buy with confidence" and "know exactly where you stand" are clearly comedians who are having a laugh - at our expense of course. And of course, they deny all responsibility. It is "YOUR" (the customers') responsibility to get the correct ticket! :roll: If you can't understand it, then you need to worry throughout your journey that some jobsworth may try to extract more money out of you in the form of a Penalty or Excess fare. Imagine that anywhere else? Only the rail industry is like that. You wouldn't get threatened with a Penalty Meal at a restaurant because their menu was so difficult to understand.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It is surprisingly often cheaper to get a Return rather than a Single, in which case the passenger may understandably throw the unwanted portion away.

As I said before, expect to be asked on an SOR using it after the first day of validity - for the reasons Dave said that staff will want to check it hasn't already been used - but any other ticket and I'd be extremely surprised to be asked.

I've only ever been asked when on an SOR being used on a subsequent day of it's validity, and that didn't surprise me at all, because before simplification it was a rule (though not in the public domain at that time) that the outward was only valid with the unused return portion. Simplification has changed that, but hasn't changed what happens in reality in my experience.

I was once travelling first thing in the morning from my Nottingham home to London, but on the return half of a SOR, since in doing two return journeys to London it was cheaper to use a Saver (as it still was) for the first outward and second return, with the SOR for the two legs in between.

I handed over my ticket when requested - the return half, of course - and was asked for the return half. The member of staff had assumed I was on my outward, it being first thing, and had noticed the date was in the past (but not "RTN" on the ticket). Fine, in itself, a small error. However, prior to the request, she loudly 'informed' me that using the return half first was fraudulent travel and I could end up with a criminal record etc etc. Usual EMT customer care, usual attempt to show somebody up/slander them. So I told her I didn't have it, which was true as it was in her hand at the time.

After that I provoked her a bit.. Childish, I know, but it was such an appalling example of 'guilty until proved otherwise' that my generally goodish nature was overturned by a feeling that I should make a small stand. No apology, of course, when the mistake was realised. Anyway, I do have a genuine point to make, other than to describe a situation of my own deliberate making: I was left with that common feeling that if it's a battle for we 'ticket nutters' who use this group and know quite a bit about what's what, how does the average punter have much of a chance? It was a 'proper' RPI as well!

Rgds,
Michael.

 

[yorkie]

...how does the average punter have much of a chance? It was a 'proper' RPI as well!...

They aren't supposed to have a chance. The railway must make £millions by overcharging people, either by scaring them into paying more or by baffling them. I estimate the amount of money made in this way to be considerably more than what they claim to lose on fare evasion (I base that on the fact that fare evasion is actually quite low as a percentage of journeys, and the amount of money overpaid can be the order of a significant percentage in many cases, and many people do overpay, especially businesses)

RPIs are looking to catch people out (generally) by the nature of them, unlike guards (generally).