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Return of steam on a token basis

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Philip

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How would you feel if a couple of TOCs decided to bring back traditional steam trains to mainline passenger service on a token level, without altering ticket prices or availability?
For example if Northern put a loco and mark 1/2/3 coaches on one of their existing S&C weekday diagrams, and if Avanti ran a weekend-extra special between Manchester or Glasgow and London using a Coronation loco and mark 4 coaches, likewise LNER with a Mallard special on the ECML.

Bringing steam back on a large-scale basis would be stupid for obvious reasons, but with a scenario like the above with only a very small number in service, would you soften towards the romantic nature of it and the chance to 'steam-haul' more regularly, or would you be annoyed that an inefficient and polluting machine was being used in place of a much more efficient and cleaner one?
 
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renegademaster

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How would you feel if a couple of TOCs decided to bring back traditional steam trains to mainline passenger service on a token level, without altering ticket prices or availability?
For example if Northern put a loco and mark 1/2/3 coaches on one of their existing S&C weekday diagrams, and if Avanti ran a weekend-extra special between Manchester or Glasgow and London using a Coronation loco and mark 4 coaches, likewise LNER with a Mallard special on the ECML.

Bringing steam back on a large-scale basis would be stupid for obvious reasons, but with a scenario like the above with only a very small number in service, would you soften towards the romantic nature of it and the chance to 'steam-haul' more regularly, or would you be annoyed that an inefficient and polluting machine was being used in place of a much more efficient and cleaner one?
I doubt it would ever be economical enough to get a private operator to do it.
London Underground have a tube from 1923 and Southwestern until recently used to keep an old EMU about. However they can't legally be used for normal services because disability regulations, which is why I think TFL got rid of the routemaster services they used to do under normal fares.
 

JonathanH

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How would you feel if a couple of TOCs decided to bring back traditional steam trains to mainline passenger service on a token level, without altering ticket prices or availability?
The charter companies deal adequately with the demand for steam trains at an economic price. There is no need to provide subsidy to support the use of steam power on ordinary services.

You posed this question before https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-are-your-feelings-on-steam.211564/#post-4876621
 

randyrippley

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Impossible to make profit using what would be an expensive nano-fleet (not even big enough to be a microfleet)
 

Neptune

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Loco hire, stock hire, crew hire, fuel costs?

Question: How much would the lowest ticket prices have to be to even have it wipe its nose.

Answer: A hell of a lot more than a normal ticket price.
 

zwk500

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How would you feel if a couple of TOCs decided to bring back traditional steam trains to mainline passenger service on a token level, without altering ticket prices or availability?
For example if Northern put a loco and mark 1/2/3 coaches on one of their existing S&C weekday diagrams, and if Avanti ran a weekend-extra special between Manchester or Glasgow and London using a Coronation loco and mark 4 coaches, likewise LNER with a Mallard special on the ECML.

Bringing steam back on a large-scale basis would be stupid for obvious reasons, but with a scenario like the above with only a very small number in service, would you soften towards the romantic nature of it and the chance to 'steam-haul' more regularly, or would you be annoyed that an inefficient and polluting machine was being used in place of a much more efficient and cleaner one?
As a kind of 'staycation express' idea on a line where the trains will broadly keep time and people aren't in a hurry like the S&C I wouldn't overly mind it, but if Avanti tried to replace a 125mph service with a 75mph steam loco I'd be very, very unimpressed.
There are very few locations where you can reasonably do any steam operations such as this as you need the triangles or turntables to avoid lengthy tender-first running and suitable water stops, as well as servicing locations for the train overnight without needing massive empty runs. But there are the odd WTT paths (or repeated plans) around. Northern used Tornado for the S&C at one point as well.
 

181

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The German Plandampf concept is a bit like this. My understanding is that a) it's only normally been for occasional weekends, not regular service, b) the extra costs are met at least partly from contributions by photographers or others who want to make it happen, and c) it's harder to arrange as the railways change further from the steam era. The only example I'm aware of in the UK is the one-off event for the centenary of the Mallaig line in 2001.
 

Mike Machin

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The green lobby would have a (fully justified) field day and it would do irreparable harm to the railway’s environment credentials in the eyes of the public.
Twenty five years ago perhaps, but we’re too far into a new regime for this to ever be a reality.
 

181

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The green lobby would have a (fully justified) field day and it would do irreparable harm to the railway’s environment credentials in the eyes of the public.

Unrealistic though the OP's idea probably is, I don't think he's suggesting anything on a large enough scale for that kind of reaction to be likely, let alone justified.
 

Anvil1984

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Loco hire, stock hire, crew hire, fuel costs?

Question: How much would the lowest ticket prices have to be to even have it wipe its nose.

Answer: A hell of a lot more than a normal ticket price.

Agreed and all of this without saving the incumbent TOC any staff as a Northern Driver and Guard would have to travel on board pretty much twiddling their thumbs. Then you’d need a set with central door locking (as WCRC are finding out on the Jacobite).
Then you have the logistics of not being able to use a bay platform in Leeds or Carlisle (for the Settle - Carlisle example) which the current 158s use. No ability to run around so would need either another loco to take it back or to use a through platform and shunt

No chance even for one round trip and really don’t see the point.
 

zwk500

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The green lobby would have a (fully justified) field day and it would do irreparable harm to the railway’s environment credentials in the eyes of the public.
Twenty five years ago perhaps, but we’re too far into a new regime for this to ever be a reality.
The Green lobby seem not to have noticed all the steam that runs around on a regular basis today. There's the Jacobite, CCE, CME, VSOE, and Shakespeare expresses (or has been in recent years) that are on regular schedules in addition to all the charter traffic.
 

RT4038

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How would you feel if a couple of TOCs decided to bring back traditional steam trains to mainline passenger service on a token level, without altering ticket prices or availability?
For example if Northern put a loco and mark 1/2/3 coaches on one of their existing S&C weekday diagrams, and if Avanti ran a weekend-extra special between Manchester or Glasgow and London using a Coronation loco and mark 4 coaches, likewise LNER with a Mallard special on the ECML.

Bringing steam back on a large-scale basis would be stupid for obvious reasons, but with a scenario like the above with only a very small number in service, would you soften towards the romantic nature of it and the chance to 'steam-haul' more regularly, or would you be annoyed that an inefficient and polluting machine was being used in place of a much more efficient and cleaner one?
The main question is - what would be the point of doing this? The existing heritage sector (both on independent lines and railtours on the main line) surely covers this end of the market. So the key in this post is presumably
without altering ticket prices or availability?
It would surely be difficult to justify using subsidy money to provide such steam train services [aside possibly for one-off marketing events designed specifically for that purpose] - if there was any justification to operate more 'affordable' steam trains for the public to ride in, then presumably Government could subsidise heritage sector fares for that purpose.

Steam trains have no place operating on normal train services in this country, given the current infrastructure and intensive use by other trains. Our railways are simply not set up to cope with this at any sensible cost and/or convenience of ordinary travellers.
 

AM9

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Unrealistic though the OP's idea probably is, I don't think he's suggesting anything on a large enough scale for that kind of reaction to be likely, let alone justified.
I think it would. The use of steam traction is tolerated as a heritage concept, - if it was subsidised and operated by a bona fide public transport operation it would be seen as a contradiction to the railway's green credentials even on a small scale, and especially if any subsidy was justified to enable enthusiasts to travel cheap.
 

43096

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As a kind of 'staycation express' idea on a line where the trains will broadly keep time and people aren't in a hurry like the S&C I wouldn't overly mind it, but if Avanti tried to replace a 125mph service with a 75mph steam loco I'd be very, very unimpressed.
There are very few locations where you can reasonably do any steam operations such as this as you need the triangles or turntables to avoid lengthy tender-first running and suitable water stops, as well as servicing locations for the train overnight without needing massive empty runs. But there are the odd WTT paths (or repeated plans) around. Northern used Tornado for the S&C at one point as well.
Given that the S&C staycation express couldn’t get close to break even with cheaper diesel traction, there’s no way a steam version would.

Before anyone mentions subsidy, Government financial support for a kettle service on some rural backwater is not going to happen, and nor should it. There are lots of things that need subsidy far more.
 

30907

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The German Plandampf concept is a bit like this. My understanding is that a) it's only normally been for occasional weekends, not regular service, b) the extra costs are met at least partly from contributions by photographers or others who want to make it happen, and c) it's harder to arrange as the railways change further from the steam era. The only example I'm aware of in the UK is the one-off event for the centenary of the Mallaig line in 2001.
The last Plandampf around Trier had plenty of steam, but it was superimposed on the regular service as steam couldn't keep to the 2018 timetable, nor could accessible stock be provided. I am fairly certain that special zonal fares applied too.
 

61653 HTAFC

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If I was paying to ride on a steam train, I'd be rather disappointed if it was hauling mk4 (or even mk3, or even aircon mk2) coaches with no chance of hearing the steam loco.
 

JonathanH

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If I was paying to ride on a steam train, I'd be rather disappointed if it was hauling mk4 (or even mk3, or even aircon mk2) coaches with no chance of hearing the steam loco.
...or sat at the front but with the sound of a generator powering the kitchen, or at the back largely unable to hear the engine anyway?

If they were too common, then as a passenger, you wouldn't get to see lineside photographers or people turning their heads to the train because of its novelty.
 

zwk500

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Before anyone mentions subsidy, Government financial support for a kettle service on some rural backwater is not going to happen, and nor should it. There are lots of things that need subsidy far more.
100% agree.
 
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People are dismissing the idea, but didn't Northern do exactly this with Tornado on the Settle and Carlisle in 2017?

Settle-to-Carlisle passengers arrive on first scheduled steam train in decades Guardian
Rail transport
This article is more than 6 years old
Full steam ahead as Tornado engine powers Settle-Carlisle train service
This article is more than 6 years old

Trainspotters flock to see first scheduled steam services in decades as part of celebrations to mark reopening of line
Helen Pidd North of England editor
Tue 14 Feb 2017 11.30 GMT
Last modified on Tue 28 Nov 2017 05.27 GMT

Trainspotters have lined the route of one of Britain’s most spectacular railways as a steam train delivered passengers on the Settle to Carlisle line on scheduled services for the first time in decades.
Jungfraubahn railway passing in front of the North face of the Eiger<br>EYXB7G Jungfraubahn railway passing in front of the North face of the Eiger
10 of the world's epic train journeys
Read more

Twelve services operated by Northern this week between Appleby and Skipton will be pulled by a new steam engine, Tornado, as part of celebrations to mark the reopening of the line after landslides.

The line shows off the best of the Yorkshire Dales, passing over the engineering triumph of the Ribblehead viaduct before entering Cumbria’s Eden valley.
A man holds his ticket for the steam train journey.
A man holds his ticket for the steam train journey. Photograph: Danny Lawson/PA

Among those on board was Graeme Bunker, operations direction of the A1 Steam Locomotive Trust, a charity which raised £3m to build the Tornado.

It was a magical journey, he said. “I always say it’s like travelling in a time machine back to an era where people still needed to get from A to B on time but in a more relaxing way. We travelled through some really stunning scenery, and because there was no mobile reception there was no fiddling with iPads or iPhones and nothing to do but look out of the window and just enjoy it.”

Travelling by steam train these days is usually an expensive treat reserved for special, one-off journeys. But tickets on the scheduled 08.25 from Appleby to Skipton service cost the same as they would if serviced by modern diesel engines: £17 for the whole 70-mile journey, less with a railcard.

Bunker said Tuesday’s four timetabled journeys were the first for almost 50 years on which passengers could just buy a normal ticket. Though many of the 2,000 passengers lucky enough to get a seat were railway enthusiasts, some had no idea they’d be travelling by steam rather than diesel. “I spoke to one lady who had just bought a ticket from Appleby because she needed to go to Skipton. She was rather surprised to find herself on a steam train,” he said.

Normally tickets to ride on the Tornado on a special chartered service cost between £50 and £100, according to Bunker.

The locomotive itself was largely crowdfunded by supporters who could covenant the monthly equivalent of the price of a pint of beer per week – when the fundraising campaign began, back in 1990, that was just £1.25 a pint.

The new engine, built in Darlington, is based on a design by Arthur H Peppercorn, the last chief mechanical engineer of the London and North Eastern Railway. It has been updated to meet modern safety requirements, fitted with additional water capacity and the latest railway safety electronics.

The original fleet of 49 Peppercorn-designed locomotives were scrapped in the 1960s as diesel replaced steam. The line closed between the Cumbrian towns of Appleby and Carlisle last February after a 500,000-tonne landslip at Eden Brow, caused by heavy rain, forced users to suffer the misery of a replacement bus service.
The Peppercorn class A1 steam locomotive is running two return journeys each day until Thursday between Appleby and Skipton.
The Peppercorn class A1 steam locomotive will run two return journeys each day until Thursday between Appleby and Skipton. Photograph: Danny Lawson/PA

Almost all of the steam-powered services were sold out across three days this week, Northern said. It advised customers to check the National Rail inquiries website for ticket availability.

There were still some reservable seats available for the 5.15pm Skipton to Appleby services on some days, the rail operator said. But all services remain popular and there are no guarantees any customers will be able to board Tornado without a reservation. No standing is permitted.
The £3m Tornado sets off.
The £3m Tornado sets off. Photograph: Danny Lawson/PA

Paul Barnfield, regional director at Northern, said on Tuesday: “It is great to see so many people supporting this historic venture. We always knew that the first timetabled steam services in the UK for 50 years would be extremely popular, but the demand for tickets has been phenomenal.

“Those who have pre-booked reservations will be guaranteed their place on the relevant service, but for those who have unreserved standard tickets access to the services will be on a first come, first served basis. We strongly advise those who want to travel to arrive early as there will be a formal queuing process in place.”
Almost all of the steam-powered services are sold out across three days this week.
Almost all of the steam-powered services are sold out across three days this week. Photograph: Danny Lawson/PA

This article was amended on 17 February 2017 to clarify that Tornado is the new locomotive’s name, not its type; it is a Peppercorn Class A1.
 

Anvil1984

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People are dismissing the idea, but didn't Northern do exactly this with Tornado on the Settle and Carlisle in 2017?


It was done on a portion of the route (Skipton - Appleby) as an advertisement for the full line reopening after being closed for a year IIRC. It did not the full Leeds to Carlisle unless you are saying we make people change trains as well to allow this folly
 

30907

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People are dismissing the idea, but didn't Northern do exactly this with Tornado on the Settle and Carlisle in 2017?
They did, after the line had been part closed for months following a major landslip, and it produced good publicity for the line. The trains were additional to the timetable, and were top and tailed with a diesel (67?) - Tornado had to r7n tender first from Appleby.

The round trip from Skipton was certainly well patronised, train starting from Appleby less so - a problem which ISTR was replicated with the Staycation Express.
 
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