Return from different station on same line - Northampton/Milton Keynes

[moogal]

I'm travelling up from London to Milton Keynes tomorrow lunchtime. That afternoon/evening I'll be going back to London, but either from Milton Keynes or Northampton (I don't yet know which). Ideally I'd like to be able to leave that option open, so was wondering what the best combination of tickets would be.

a) If I bought a Euston - Milton Keynes return and then wanted to go back from Northampton, is there a way to extend the return half to start there?

b) Could I just get a Euston - Northampton return and get off early at Milton Keynes? Similar for the return.

c) Is there another option I've missed? Other than buying separate singles for each, which seems vastly more expensive.

I have a Gold Card, and my return travel time is flexible so I can avoid peak restrictions if necessary.

 

[bb21]

I'm travelling up from London to Milton Keynes tomorrow lunchtime. That afternoon/evening I'll be going back to London, but either from Milton Keynes or Northampton (I don't yet know which). Ideally I'd like to be able to leave that option open, so was wondering what the best combination of tickets would be.

a) If I bought a Euston - Milton Keynes return and then wanted to go back from Northampton, is there a way to extend the return half to start there?

Yes. It's called an over-distance / over-riding excess and will cost you the difference between the two return fares and must be purchased before boarding if the ticket office is open. If you want to avoid the hassle of having to queue up again at Northampton, then (b),

b) Could I just get a Euston - Northampton return and get off early at Milton Keynes? Similar for the return.

Yes.

c) Is there another option I've missed? Other than buying separate singles for each, which seems vastly more expensive.

I have a Gold Card, and my return travel time is flexible so I can avoid peak restrictions if necessary.

No need for two singles.

 

[yorkie]

a) If I bought a Euston - Milton Keynes return and then wanted to go back from Northampton, is there a way to extend the return half to start there?

Yes, but the staff might not know how to do it, or claim it can't/shouldn't be done. Allow plenty of time for a 'discussion', but there's sadly not really any documentation stating you have a right to it. So it's a lottery basically.

b) Could I just get a Euston - Northampton return and get off early at Milton Keynes? Similar for the return.

c) Is there another option I've missed? Other than buying separate singles for each, which seems vastly more expensive.

I have a Gold Card, and my return travel time is flexible so I can avoid peak restrictions if necessary.

If you can commit to LM both ways, it's cheaper to "split" at MKC anyway!

 

[bb21]

If you can commit to LM both ways, it's cheaper to "split" at MKC anyway!

Yes, good idea, since with the exception of a few morning peak services, all LM services call at MKC anyway.

 

[moogal]

If you can commit to LM both ways, it's cheaper to "split" at MKC anyway!

Oh is it? That's very handy to know! In which case I could get the MKC return and then add an NMP-MKC single if it was required?

 

[bb21]

Oh is it? That's very handy to know! In which case I could get the MKC return and then add an NMP-MKC single if it was required?

That's correct.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes, but the staff might not know how to do it, or claim it can't/shouldn't be done....

To be fair, no staff should be changing the origin of a ticket. The destination should only be changed before boarding a train (unless there were no facilities to do so).

....Allow plenty of time for a 'discussion', but there's sadly not really any documentation stating you have a right to it....

There is only one time a passenger can be considered to have a right to an Over-Riding (travelling beyond the destination of the ticket) excess and that is where condition 3 is at play. The TSA (you remember what the TSA is, right?) makes that distinction. Let's not forget iKB (which staff should be aware of) either, as that has instructions for staff on where an excess should be given.....

....So it's a lottery basically....

Indeed, but removing the lottery would mean there would be no chance for the op unless the ticket was changed before the outward departure (where facilities exist).

 

[yorkie]

Indeed, but removing the lottery would mean there would be no chance for the op unless the ticket was changed before the outward departure (where facilities exist).

Not necessarily, as if it was ever fully clarified, it's not necessarily certain which way it would go.

It's certainly the opinion of many booking clerks that it can be done, but not all TOCs have the same policies when it comes to excess fares, and not everyone has the same interpretations.

It's down to semantics and pedantry; it could be argued by some people that changing the origin when at the destination is same as changing the destination when at the origin? (Rhetorical question; we're all going to have different opinions, there's no need for another 20-page thread on this subject)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

It's tiresome to read so many criticisms of railway staff on here. Even moreso when it is an attack directed at something that hasn't even happened such as in this exchange:

a) If I bought a Euston - Milton Keynes return and then wanted to go back from Northampton, is there a way to extend the return half to start there?

Yes, but the staff might not know how to do it, or claim it can't/shouldn't be done. Allow plenty of time for a 'discussion', but there's sadly not really any documentation stating you have a right to it. So it's a lottery basically.

Why criticise staff for possibly not knowing how to create a ticket for which the passenger has no right to expect?

Changing the starting point of the return half of a return journey to a station further out than the originally contracted end-point is not a defined procedure within the Excess Ticket regulations. Yes, it can be done (using the paradigm of half the difference between the fare paid and the fare due), and yes, some staff will sell it. But please don't give moogal the impression that it is a standard product which (s)he has any right to expect, and please don't slur staff who may not be willing to provide such a change to a ticket already purchased and a contract already enacted.

I realise that you have a personal campaign to find fault with railway staff, and I wish you good luck with that, but please keep that personal mission quite clearly distinct from advice given to a passenger asking for help. Thank you.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It's tiresome to read so many criticisms of railway staff on here.

Couldn't agree more.

We all understand that people in all walks of life may occasionally make mistakes, but rail staff are no more 'guilty' for being fallible human beings than anyone else.

As Dave says, in this case no-one can be criticised for not selling something that doesn't formally exist.

 

[FenMan]

This is off topic, but ...

Dave's answer is perfectly fine so far as I'm concerned regarding the specifics of the OP's query, but I cannot let his remarks on "attacks" on railway staff go unchallenged.

I'm a simple customer with no axe to grind. For many journeys I prefer travelling by train and am perfectly happy to purchase a ticket that is valid from A to B. Call it old fashioned, but I believe in paying for a service that is useful to me.

However, I've also been put at the mercy of staff who clearly either have not been adequately trained or really ought to be pursuing other career options.

Example 1: The FGW guard who refused to sell me an Any Permitted Blackwater - Wimbledon ticket on board a service to Guildford (the Blackwater TVM - one was installed at the time, there are now two - was out of order.) And, yes, I was travelling from Blackwater to Wimbledon. He would only sell me a more expensive ticket, which I refused to purchase and, as we approached North Camp, I told him I would leave the train and purchase the correct ticket at the Ash Vale ticket office instead. He restrained me and a stand off ensued. He then left in a huff and a few minutes later (after phoning home?) sold me the ticket I'd asked for in the first place. Completely unnecessary.

Example 2: Travelling from Blackwater to a London destination beyond Paddington on a permitted route via Reading (again when the sole TVM at Blackwater was out of order) I tried to buy a ticket at the platform-side ticket office at Reading whilst changing trains. An RPI intervened and told me the ticket I was asking for was only valid via Wokingham, erm, which I'd passed through 15 minutes ago, to Waterloo "because it's a South West Trains ticket". On this occasion, to avoid a scene, I heartily agreed with him, bought the ticket and caught the next train to Paddington.

It's not all one-way traffic though. I'd like to thank the guard on a Southern service heading towards Lewes who sold me a ticket from Blackwater without question (a knackered TVM at Blackwater again and the FGW guard's machine not working either meant he was my "first opportunity to buy a ticket").

*FGW eventually replaced the boogered card reader that made the Blackwater TVM so unreliable. It took them two years.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

FenMan, You have evidence of 2 instances in your travelling career in which the procedure was (apparently) incorrect. Thanks for providing those facts (albeit uncorroborated) about these 2 specific instances.

But those 2 instances don't assist moogal, and in no way do they affect the proposition that I put to the forum:
1. It is a matter of fact that yorkie criticised imaginary staff in an imaginary future scenario for failing to predictably provide a future customer with a variation to a contract already partially enacted;
2. The criticism was directed at the unpredictability of staff in providing a variation to the contract where in fact there is no provision in the published guidance or regulations to provide that variation. (i.e. where any staff does provide the requested Excess, the passenger has been unexpectedly benefitted).
We can imagine that yorkie has based his criticism of imagined future events on some past experiences - but if so, we are obliged to speculate that the mission to find fault has been imported into a simple request for help with a request which, under the procedures available, is not actually an option available to the passenger. And therefore, it cannot be an option to blame staff (past or future) for failing to provide an unavailable product.
That is the crux of my commments.

As I have already requested, please lets not confuse personal incidents and personal attitudes with factual advice.

I'm sorry to hear that you have had those 2 instances from which you have found fault with our railways during your experiences as a rail passenger. But I'm not going to stray any further from the subject of this thread.

 

[causton]

It also seems on that route, some staff may or may not try to add a £10.00 admin "change of journey" fee to the excess where it does not need to apply. I shall say no more, but of course I do not do myself!

 

[RJ]

There is only one time a passenger can be considered to have a right to an Over-Riding (travelling beyond the destination of the ticket) excess and that is where condition 3 is at play. The TSA (you remember what the TSA is, right?) makes that distinction. Let's not forget iKB (which staff should be aware of) either, as that has instructions for staff on where an excess should be given.....

Oh, that thing they keep updating without us being notified? I only found out through a guard's post on one of these online forums that they've completely done away with charging "half the difference" for all types of excess. I would have thought this would warrant a brief at least!

 

[FenMan]

Although I'd like to continue the discussion I will refrain, as it would not add any value in answering the OP's question.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's tiresome to read so many criticisms of railway staff on here. Even moreso when it is an attack directed at something that hasn't even happened such as in this exchange:Why criticise staff for possibly not knowing how to create a ticket for which the passenger has no right to expect?

Perhaps because past experience has showed that there is a high chance that it will happen, so it is best to forewarn moogal so that they can decide whether it is something worth doign, and have a backup plan ready in case the excess is not granted

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not necessarily, as if it was ever fully clarified, it's not necessarily certain which way it would go.

It's certainly the opinion of many booking clerks that it can be done, but not all TOCs have the same policies when it comes to excess fares, and not everyone has the same interpretations.

It's down to semantics and pedantry; it could be argued by some people that changing the origin when at the destination is same as changing the destination when at the origin? (Rhetorical question; we're all going to have different opinions, there's no need for another 20-page thread on this subject)

Oh how the wheel turns.....

....

(b) An Excess Fare may only be Sold if it entitles the Purchaser of it to:-

(i) travel via a different route than the one he would otherwise be
entitled to use;

(ii) travel at a different time or on a different day than he would
otherwise be entitled to travel;

(iii) terminate or break and resume his journey at a Station at which he
would not otherwise be entitled to do this;

(iv) use a better class of accommodation;

(v) travel beyond the Station to which the Fare he holds entitles him to
travel, but only where he was unable to buy a Fare that entitles him to make
such a journey at the Station where and at the time when he started his
journey; or

(vi) start his journey at a Station that is on the Permitted Route for the
Flow that he is entitled to use, where he would not otherwise be entitled to
do this.

....

Need that clarifying?

Oh, that thing they keep updating without us being notified?....

That's the one.

....I only found out through a guard's post on one of these online forums that they've completely done away with charging "half the difference" for all types of excess. I would have thought this would warrant a brief at least!

Not all types, Change of Route can be half if only one portion of a return ticket is changed. They should issue briefs like they used to through Newsrail Express, but then part of a clerks job is checking for changes periodically......:roll:

 

[maniacmartin]

We all understand that people in all walks of life may occasionally make mistakes, but rail staff are no more 'guilty' for being fallible human beings than anyone else.

As Dave says, in this case no-one can be criticised for not selling something that doesn't formally exist.

My experiences at the ticket office (not related to excesses) are not about occasional mistakes, but staff repeatedly deliberately refusing to read documentation given to them, right up to refusing to read letter from a pricing manager backing up my ticket because "The pricing manager is wrong". There are areas where this attitude is the norm, not the exception, and the powers that be refuse to address it.

Unlike FenMan, I'm afraid my patience has worn too thin, and I'm fed up of the 'all railway staff are all angels who can do no wrong' mentality that many staff have.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... and I'm fed up of the 'all railway staff are all angels who can do know wrong' mentality that many staff have.

Not all railway staff are angels (for which I include head office personnel), just like not all shop staff are, and not all bank staff are, and not all politicians are, and so on, but equally, there are a good number of exceptional staff out there who do their very best everyday, sometimes dealing with members of the public who 'know' they are right (even when they are not) and will accept nothing less than what they see as perfection.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you had people on a forum, about your profession, constantly claiming that people who do the job are s**ts who care nothing for the job or how to do it, and that most of them get it wrong, I'm sure you'd see the other side of the coin.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh, that thing they keep updating without us being notified? I only found out through a guard's post on one of these online forums that they've completely done away with charging "half the difference" for all types of excess.

Have they? So far as I knew that was still correct for a route excess, though it has never been the case for a ticket type excess.

Edit: someone has confirmed this above.

How about change of class excesses - can you really not do first class one way other than with singles now?

I do wish they'd sort this mess out the simple way by pricing everything as singles. No need for any excesses then, and when there were it'd be a simple case of refund and reissue.

Neil

 

[Haywain]

I only found out through a guard's post on one of these online forums that they've completely done away with charging "half the difference" for all types of excess. I would have thought this would warrant a brief at least!

That guard has got it wrong. Half the difference is still appropriate for a change of route excess in one direction only of a return ticket, and is sometimes the result for a change of class in one direction (although the calculations mean this can vary enormously). It has never been the case for over-riding/over-distance or for change of ticket type. Maybe the lack of a brief is due to the lack of a change!

 

[Haywain]

Not all railway staff are angels (for which I include head office personnel), just like not all shop staff are, and not all bank staff are, and not all politicians are, and so on, but equally, there are a good number of exceptional staff out there who do their very best everyday, sometimes dealing with members of the public who 'know' they are right (even when they are not) and will accept nothing less than what they see as perfection.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you had people on a forum, about your profession, constantly claiming that people who do the job are s**ts who care nothing for the job or how to do it, and that most of them get it wrong, I'm sure you'd see the other side of the coin.

And maybe worth adding that not all customers are angels either, in spite of what is sometimes portrayed in places on these forums. In my experience the variation in the customers is even greater than that in the staff, but I would never take a broad brush approach of assuming that they are all wrong!

 

[RJ]

That guard has got it wrong. Half the difference is still appropriate for a change of route excess in one direction only of a return ticket, and is sometimes the result for a change of class in one direction (although the calculations mean this can vary enormously). It has never been the case for over-riding/over-distance or for change of ticket type. Maybe the lack of a brief is due to the lack of a change!

I thought the change of class for one direction of a return ticket had been changed to something wonderfully simple along the lines of charging either the full excess, or charging the difference between the appropriate Standard Single and First Single, whichever is cheaper. I'll check when I'm in tomorrow.