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Retired Drivers

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research

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17 Mar 2010
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Hello,

I'm doing some research for a documentary about how train drivers cope after experiencing a fatality and the procedures put in place to support them.

I am looking for drivers who have experience of this, who would be interested in sharing their stories but no longer work for the rail networks.

All responses will be sensitively dealt with.

Please feel free to respond to this post or contact me or my colleague, Emily Ibbitson, on 01273 648390.

Many thanks,
Lucy Bennett
Producer
www.lambentproductions.co.uk
 
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RailUK Forums

SWT Driver

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You're company has pestered active drivers before & now you're pestering retired drivers about this subject, why not use the correct channels namely ASLEF & RMT and get their permission to approach drivers, instead of advertising on here & other railway forums.

You won't get any help from me & I'll be making it known to ASLEF that your company is still pestering drivers about this distressing subject.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I have to agree with SWT Driver. This is the 3rd or 4th time I have seen you advertising for drivers who have gone through this horror. With such a long list of accreditations and films broadcast on the major TV channels then you must know that there are proper channels for this.
 

research

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Thank you for your comments.

Our aim is to make a film that explores a difficult subject with sensitivity and tact - and for anyone involved in that film to benefit from the experience. The last thing we want is to add to anyone's distress.

We have no intention of 'pestering' drivers who do not want to talk about this or who do not want to take part.

We have, of course, gone through the correct channels. However the purpose of research is to explore a subject thoroughly, and to have conversations with as many people as we can so that we can be accurate, and represent a subject properly.

We believe strongly in giving people a voice - and telling stories that shed light on issues that many people don't think about. This film will do that - in a way that is utterly responsible to everyone who takes part, and everyone who watches it.
 

O L Leigh

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If you have approached the industry through the proper channels, why are representatives of your company constantly popping up here and asking for leads?

Please can you make the appropriate requests through ATOC and/or the unions. If they cannot or will not put you in touch with drivers then please take that as a sign of the door being closed.

O L Leigh
 

Eddie

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10 Feb 2010
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Essex
Hello Lucy ..

A few thoughts regarding your research into the effects of fatalities on the railway ..

i believe there is no set pattern for coping with the effects caused when a fatality occurs ..drivers do 1 of 2 things , they either give up the ghost and never drive again ..or they just get on with it , i guess its an occupational hazard ..a driver has no say in what happens he is just a tool that an individual uses to achieve his/her objective ..

I am sure if you actually get to speak to drivers most will tell you they put that experience somewhere far away never to resurface again ..and asking them to recount their experience would invariably bring it all flooding back ..

Perhaps your research money would be better spent actually finding out what compels someone to " end it all " because its the most talked about thing among drivers when a fatality occurs .." Why me and Why did they do it " ..now if you knew the answer to that you would no doubt get a Nobel Peace Prize or the equivalent award ..

I also believe you would get the same response if you asked the Fire service about their experiences ..or the ambulance service .. people dont want to " Relive " their experiences again because it's too painful .

As for the care in place to help drivers i think its about as much as you can expect from the companies ..to help you over that difficult period and back on the road again .

Good luck with you research i will be watching with interest..regards Eddie .
 

CosherB

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If you have approached the industry through the proper channels, why are representatives of your company constantly popping up here and asking for leads?

Please can you make the appropriate requests through ATOC and/or the unions. If they cannot or will not put you in touch with drivers then please take that as a sign of the door being closed.

O L Leigh

Oooh, bit of ranks-closing there? I'm not in the rail industry but believe that anyone has the right to solicit freely-given accounts of any situation, as long as it doesn't breech any commercial secrecy or legal constraints, or be detremental to any third party.

Lucy is asking for voluntary accounts from any driver who feels he/she would like to give them. Approaching rail unions is all well and good, but they may have their own agendas which could limit (either totally or partially) or distort the raw data from drivers' first hand personal experiences. To suggest that she should back off because the Union doesn't want such a programme to be made smacks of arrogance. It's along the lines of 'move along sonny, nothing to see hear'.

No driver HAS to respond to Lucy's request. If they don't want to re-visit a horrific experience, they simply won't respond to her request. So what's the problem with her making that request directly to the source of the information she seeks?
 

O L Leigh

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Oooh, bit of ranks-closing there?

Nope. More like arse-covering.

Most TOC's do not like their staff talking to the media or making much in the way of public statements that could show them or the industry as a whole in a bad light. I have had my own brushes with the management with regard to my training weblog, as have others with regard to their own internet activities.

If a media company really wishes to show the other side of railway fatalities, staff will want to know that any involvement they volunteer is officially sanctioned, or at the very least they will be protected by their union. Putting yourself forward off your own bat like this, especially without knowing precisely what information is being asked for, how it will be treated and presented, and how, when and where it will be broadcast, is tantamount to putting your hand up for a P45.

This is the main reason why I and other railstaff are insistent that Lambent make the proper approaches. However, what really grates is that this must be the third researcher from this company to have made an approach via this forum, and on each occasion they have been told the same thing. What alarms me is that they have actually made the approaches we have been advising them to make and been told firmly (but hopefully politely) to "do one", which is why they keep popping up here again and again asking for the same assistance. This being so, any railstaff who volunteer their co-operation will be going right out on a limb with no safety net whatsoever.

Can you now understand our reluctance...?

O L Leigh
 

Metroland

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Unfortunately the media's record when representing railways and rail enthusiasts is so poor, I don't blame anyone for not talking to them. As it's been said, I don't think that's arrogance, it's simply covering your back.

The railway is the safest form of transport in the UK, it is the most reliable (far in excess of road delays, airlines and buses), the average fare is a fiver, and railwaymen are some of the hardest working people I've ever met. But that isn't the public *perception* at all, and I'm afraid much of that down the media who represents the railway in such a way purely for their own ends, rather than actually reporting the whole story.

I'm not saying that would be the case here, but I 100% understand people's reluctance to get involved.
 

ukrob

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To be fair, in this thread, she specifically asked for retired drivers, so arse covering and what the rule book does or doesn't say does not come into it.
 

ukrob

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Do we know any...?

Actually, that doesn't reassure me much. What happened in 1972 won't necessarily be particularly pertinent.

O L Leigh

Well I certainly do, but won't be emailing this thread to them, and no doubt there are hundreds of lurkers on this site many of which could be retired drivers.

Bizarre question.

Many drivers have retired since 1972 you know - many as recently as this year! ;)
 

O L Leigh

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Yes I know some too, and they also retired more recently than 1972. But those that had bumps had them years ago when the "chain of care" procedures were probably very different (assuming they existed at all).

O L Leigh
 

TDK

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19 Apr 2008
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Hello,

I'm doing some research for a documentary about how train drivers cope after experiencing a fatality and the procedures put in place to support them.

I am looking for drivers who have experience of this, who would be interested in sharing their stories but no longer work for the rail networks.

All responses will be sensitively dealt with.

Please feel free to respond to this post or contact me or my colleague, Emily Ibbitson, on 01273 648390.

Many thanks,
Lucy Bennett
Producer
www.lambentproductions.co.uk

I really do not think this is the place to ask for this information, scaping the barrel comes to mind, to be honest how would you know that any contact made is genuine? I really feel that you need to go through the proper channels, I personally have had many experiences with fatalities from a management chain of care angle and I for one would not like to be interviewed in connection to any of my experiences to protect both the drivers and the families of the victims, so, I think you are out of luck with your program, maybe approach the BTP they may help! But I doubt it
 

research

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Joined
17 Mar 2010
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5
Thankyou for all your comments.

Since my last post we have made some progress with our film that I would like to share with you.

We have been in touch with a number of bereavement agencies such as SOBS, Papyrus, WAY, The Compassionate Friends, and CRUSE. We have spoken to a number of families who have been bereaved by a suicide and have been over whelmed by the support we have had for our project.

Many of the people we have spoken to feel that the subject of suicide needs to be discussed openly. It is still very much a taboo subject and it is our hope that by making a film that looks at suicide in a respectful and sensitive way we will go some way towards changing this.

We feel that mental health issues are important and whilst the media at large often handles the subject badly, our company prides itself on doing things differently. We won a Mental Health Award for our film A-Z of your Health that told the stories of young people with mental illness. As a company we always put our contributors needs before our own and I would be happy to send out our company profile to anyone interested in reading it.

We have been in touch with the RMT who have been supportive of what we are trying to achieve and are looking into finding us drivers who can contribute to a discussion about suicide on the tubes/trains. We feel it is essential to hear this voice as the effects of a suicide do not stop with the bereaved family and friends, as you well know. The mental health of a driver after someone has jumped in front of their train is of great importance to this discussion also.

We appreciate that this is not an easy ask and we understand that there is the risk of upsetting people when discussing such a sensitive subject. However, our research is all pointing to the need to TALK about this subject if only to stop one single person from taking their life. Suicide is the second biggest killer in the UK. Every 85 minutes someone in the UK dies by suicide, leaving behind an average of six people who will suffer intense grief. 75% of these people are not in touch with Mental Health support when they could be. Three quarters of all suicide deaths involve males, particularly between the ages of 16 and 24. Our film wants to reach these people and the benefits of making a film about suicide, we believe, must surely outway the risks.

We are looking for drivers of any age, any background, retired or active it doesn’t matter, we are just very keen to talk to anyone who has been affected by a suicide on the lines. All contact will be treated in complete confidence and there is no pressure to be involved in the filming. We just want to speak to you. This film is important and we would much rather make it with your support rather than without it.

Many thanks,
Lucy Bennett/Emily Ibbitson
01273 648 380
 

CarterUSM

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I do not see the problem, they are only asking, if someone wants to contact them, then so be it, and if they don't, fair enough.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I don't see a problem any more, they have done as advised and spoken to the RMT and other relevant bodies.

Good luck with it.
 

TDK

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Crewe
I don't see a problem any more, they have done as advised and spoken to the RMT and other relevant bodies.

Good luck with it.

No mention of an agreement by ASLEF "The Train Drivers Union"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Three quarters of all suicide deaths involve males, particularly between the ages of 16 and 24. Our film wants to reach these people and the benefits of making a film about suicide, we believe, must surely outway the risks.

Many thanks,
Lucy Bennett/Emily Ibbitson
01273 648 380

Where did you get these statistics from? I have been to many suicides and not one has been in this age group!
 

royaloak

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today I will mostly be at home decorating
Surely if the unions are okay with this they will act as a go-between to ensure the (ex)drivers are treated with compassion.
The fact that you keep advertising on this and other websites with little progress should make it clear that people dont want to relive the events!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't see a problem any more, they have done as advised and spoken to the RMT and other relevant bodies.

No mention of an agreement by ASLEF "The Train Drivers Union"

No mention af an agreement (or proof of an approach) to any union!
 

research

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17 Mar 2010
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5
Surely if the unions are okay with this they will act as a go-between to ensure the (ex)drivers are treated with compassion.

-We have been in continuous contact with ASLEF and the RMT throughout, both of whom have showed their support for the project. ASLEF have given us a number of leads that we are in the process of following up and I am sure that both unions would welcome the opportunity to act as go-betweens when we get to that stage. I think this is a very good idea.


No mention af an agreement (or proof of an approach) to any union!

-If you want proof of our meetings and communications with ASLEF and the RMT I would be very happy to discuss this with you over the telephone.

The fact that you keep advertising on this and other websites with little progress should make it clear that people dont want to relive the events!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

-I feel it is important that individuals are able to decide for themselves what they do and don’t want to talk about or do.

-Regarding statistics, these were taken from the book ‘A Special Scar: The Experiences of People Bereaved by Suicide’ by Alison Wertheimer, Routledge 2008. If you would like any further information about Suicide, I would be very happy to direct you towards the numerous publications, organisations and websites that can provide this for you.
 

TDK

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I watched this and fair enough it was a well put together program but I really do not think it addressed the failure of the system with the quote of 75% of people with mental health problems not getting help. However it was a good production. I did notice the un easyness of the retired driver who had 2 fatalities and this was all brought back to him after 30 years, he is probably suffering from this. I hope he didn't watch it as this would have upset him even more.
 

9K43

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1 May 2010
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In my service, I hve been involved in 2 incidents where a suicide had left a body on the railway.
The first was working a DMU from Leeds City to Bradford Interchange one summer Saturday afternoon.
The other was on a weed killing train going upto Standage Tunnel on the up Wessiie, about Slaithwaite.

When this happens, it has some effect on your thinking, but BR had nothing in place to counter the trauma of the incident. After the bodies were removed, we just got on wit what we were doing,
 

TDK

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In my service, I hve been involved in 2 incidents where a suicide had left a body on the railway.
The first was working a DMU from Leeds City to Bradford Interchange one summer Saturday afternoon.
The other was on a weed killing train going upto Standage Tunnel on the up Wessiie, about Slaithwaite.

When this happens, it has some effect on your thinking, but BR had nothing in place to counter the trauma of the incident. After the bodies were removed, we just got on wit what we were doing,

Things have changed now, after a fatality or any other serious incident the driver is taken off track and tested for drugs and alcohol,I do not agree with this but it is escential that in the hearing/inquest the drivers representitive can prove the driver was fit for duty. The driver is then given time off to recover from their trauma and offered councilling from proffesional people. On return to work the driver is puton an action plan to assist them to try to overcome their experiences.

It is all down to a Chain of Care adopted by the TOC's. I have dealt with the aftermath of fatalities and helpdrivers return to work, in most cases after a while a driver does return to work but the experience never leaves them even after long time periods. There are some drivers who just can't cope with what has happened and they never drive a train again.

In your case with a body on the line this still has an impact on a driver and the driver is interviewed as soon as possible and then the interviewer assesses whether the driver needs any help to over come what they have seen, I have also had this happen on 2 occasions, one driver took a week off the other carried on with his booked job, everyone is differnet and needs different attention.
 
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