"Retimed" Scotrail Train

[Toby!]

I have something I am curious about, and I’m almost certain someone here can satisfy my cusiosity!

A few Sundays ago (4/8) I was travelling from Leuchars to Oban. The planned itinerary was as follows.

Depart Leuchars 0937
Arrive Haymarket 1058

Depart Haymarket 1104
Arrive Glasgow Queen St 1151

Depart Glasgow Q. St 1220
Arrive Oban 1527

*connects with ferry at Oban*

All did not go to plan. The 0937 LEU to HYM was delayed, arriving Haymarket at 1104. So I get to see the Glasgow train being dispatched as I arrive. So the only thing to do was get the 1134, which arrives Glasgow 1221.
Once on the 1134 I approached the (extremely helpful) guard and explained the situation. He said he would see if he could get the Oban train held for a couple of minutes, as the next train is not for 6h! When he contacted the control room at Glasgow they said that the arrival time of the 1058 to Haymarket had been “retimed” to 1101, and as a result the connection at Haymarket was not valid in the first place. Therefore there was no question of even considering holding the train, as it was our fault.
So I got to watch another of my connections depart as I arrived! The end result was a 6h Glasgow daytrip, and an overnight stay in Oban added to my holiday, so it’s not all bad.

Anyway I have a couple of questions. Firstly, what is a retimed train, and is there a record kept? And secondly, was there any chance of the train being held, “retimings” notwithstanding?

 

[chuckles1066]

Anyway I have a couple of questions. Firstly, what is a retimed train, and is there a record kept? And secondly, was there any chance of the train being held, “retimings” notwithstanding?

I imagine a retimed train is the TOC's way of avoiding having to pay compensation for their failures.

A little like some recently introduced legislation that allows the Police to "de-arrest" you.

Yep, they can arrest you with impunity and then, when they realise they don't have anything on you, they can de-arrest you and, in the eyes of the law, the initial arrest never happened.

Saves them lots of compensation payouts for wrongful arrest.

Genius innit?

 

[CallySleeper]

Hi Toby, welcome to RailUK.

Your train.

"WTT schedule" at the top of the page tells me that this train ran to its usual schedule and hadn't been altered in any way.

Of the two sets of times, the column marked 'GBTT' is the times you'll find in timetables such as the ScotRail one. The column marked 'WTT' is the times trains will actually run to, as you'll see there is a slight difference.

I'd disagree with SR control that it was 'retimed', it wasn't. The arrival time at Haymarket was always officially 11.01.

I'd agree with SR in that it is not a valid or guaranteed connection because it doesn't fulfil the minimum interchange time. The chances of a train being held is up to the Operating Company, and depends on a number of factors including the number of people wanting the connection, the implications of delaying the train and how frequent services are (i.e. more likely if it's the last train!) Since your first connection was invalid, there was it seems less chance SR would hold your third train.

 

[Toby!]

Thanks CallySleeper, I didn't know about that website.

I also didn't know about the WTT! It seems a very odd thing to me, to have two timetables. Since the journey planners use the GBTT, which show a valid connection time in this case, I was able to book an advance ticket with an invalid connection.

 

[The Planner]

Some massive differentials there, a -9 at South Gyle, don't think I've ever seen such a large difference.

 

[Crossover]

I'd agree with SR in that it is not a valid or guaranteed connection because it doesn't fulfil the minimum interchange time. The chances of a train being held is up to the Operating Company, and depends on a number of factors including the number of people wanting the connection, the implications of delaying the train and how frequent services are (i.e. more likely if it's the last train!) Since your first connection was invalid, there was it seems less chance SR would hold your third train.

I'm afraid I wouldn't agree. The passengers shouldn't really be expected to adhere to minimum interchanges based on the WTT, as without some digging, these are not obvious.

I have done a search on NRE and for tomorrow it is giving me the same itinerary as the OP and thus (my bold above) I would deem that as a valid connection.

Can't help but feel ScotRail were pulling a fast one there!

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe the person the guard spoke to was just looking at the WTT and didn't realise there was a differential timing?

 

[CallySleeper]

I think the issue here lies, as The Planner has pointed out, differences between the WTT and GBTT of 3 mins+ isn't on, especially at stations such as Haymarket, and especially since it cuts into the connection time.

I also believe the least the OP can do is email ScotRail to notify/complain about this specific train.

 

[Crossover]

6 hour delay repay, possibly? :P

 

[maniacmartin]

The minimum connection time refers to the public timetable, not the working timetable, so you are due Delay Repay. If you want to get a claim in, do it quick as you may not have much longer.

Usually the public timetable is more conservative than the working timetable, so this situation could not happen. It's very odd.

 

[Crossover]

Since the journey planners use the GBTT, which show a valid connection time in this case, I was able to book an advance ticket with an invalid connection.

Toby, could you confirm whether your ticket was an Advance Purchase, with reservations for the specific services, or if it was just a general single ticket that was bought online ahead of the date?

 

[Searle]

I would definitely complain to ScotRail for compensation, it's absolutely outrageous that they can claim that you were breaking the minimum interchange time where it's entirely valid and you've lost a day of your holiday because of it.

 

[CallySleeper]

While we're on the subject, I would also argue to SR/NR that five minutes at Haymarket is definitely not sufficient, especially in Toby's case to change direction.

 

[Toby!]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have recently put in a compensation request, so not heard back yet.
I assume I will receive a full refund..
The issue was more curiosity about what had actually happened, now it all seems clear. I wasn't actually annoyed that they didn't hold the train, I understand how these things work. It was more the implication that they would have held it, but didn't due to this issue.

Toby, could you confirm whether your ticket was an Advance Purchase, with reservations for the specific services, or if it was just a general single ticket that was bought online ahead of the date?

Yes, it was an advance ticket with that itinerary. (just checked the email to be sure!) But seats can only be booked for the Glasgow Oban portion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While we're on the subject, I would also argue to SR/NR that five minutes at Haymarket is definitely not sufficient, especially in Toby's case to change direction.

I think it's adequate, but only if we assume the trains are right on time!

 

[scotsman]

You should complain to ScotRail - making a claim for delay, as well as a separate complaint about the actions of control - and also make a complaint to Transport Scotland. ScotRail's Customer Relations outsourcing firm is so inept that they will argue black is white that control were correct, so have some screenshots to email them.

 

[The Planner]

Connections are nowt to do with NR, they are purely set by the TOC/ATOC.