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Restrictions for Eastbourne to Bath

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tony_mac

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I'm away from home at the moment, and have no access to my computer (and hence Avantix).
I am taking the return leg of a Super Off Peak return from Eastbourne to Bath Spa.
Can anyone tell me what the restrictions are for heading into London from Reading? (I have broken my return journey at Reading, and will continue via London in the morning then on to Eastbourne in the afternoon)

I will probably travel via Waterloo, but possibly via Paddington if the timings are better.
Thanks!
 
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sonic2009

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I'm away from home at the moment, and have no access to my computer (and hence Avantix).
I am taking the return leg of a Super Off Peak return from Eastbourne to Bath Spa.
Can anyone tell me what the restrictions are for heading into London from Reading? (I have broken my return journey at Reading, and will continue via London in the morning then on to Eastbourne in the afternoon)

I will probably travel via Waterloo, but possibly via Paddington if the timings are better.
Thanks!

the 1st train from bath spa is showing as the 1013 Bath Spa to London Paddington arr 1138, 1236 London Victoria to Brighton, then to Eastbourne arr 1404, from reading im not quite sure.
 

yorkie

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There are no restrictions from London to Eastbourne.

If you go Reading-Redhill route, I don't see how any restriction can apply there either.

The only route you may have problems with is Reading-London.

The 0557 from Reading is valid on the basis that it called at Swindon at 0523, and your ticket is valid from Swindon between 0200 & 0545.

The next through train that is valid for a journey from Bath is not until 1102 (assuming starting short at Swindon) or 1109 (direct from Bath) from Reading to London.

However, on the basis that the 0556 arrival at Reading is valid, and you may then connect to an alternative route, you could then take a later alternative train (e.g. 0612 to Waterloo), quite how far you can then justify other services from Reading is probably open to interpretation (e.g. say you got the 0745 from Reading, this departed Bath at a time barred to your ticket, but can you justify it on the basis that an earlier train into Reading is valid and then you could hang around in Reading for a bit? I am unsure.)

Do you have to go via London? What time were you thinking?
 

John @ home

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what the restrictions are for heading into London from Reading? (I have broken my return journey at Reading, and will continue via London in the morning then on to Eastbourne in the afternoon)
This is a more complex question than I thought and the answer depends on how you reached Reading.

An Eastbourne - Bath Spa route + Any Permitted SSR takes Restriction XC:
National Routeing Guide NFM 06 CD said:
Restriction : XC
JOURNEYS TO/FROM/VIA LONDON/READING

Available as listed below MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS (by any train on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holiday Mondays).

TOWARDS LONDON
Available on the following trains and all later services:
From:
Bath Spa 1000
There is no listed entry for Reading for this restriction. If you have travelled via Swindon, my interpretation is that the ticket is valid on any train which can be reached by leaving Bath Spa at or after 1000. As indicated by sonic2009, first direct train to Paddington is
1013 Bath Spa - 1108 Reading 1109 - Paddington 1138
If you have travelled via Swindon, I don't think you can reach Waterloo validly from Reading earlier than
1112 Reading - London Waterloo 1234
But if you have travelled via Salisbury, using Maps BL+WX as a permitted route combination, then Restriction XC states
National Routeing Guide NFM 06 CD said:
Validity code Q8 applies to all journeys via Fareham/Southampton/Salisbury.
and Restriction Q8 states
National Routeing Guide NFM 06 CD said:
Restrictions apply Monday to Friday; no travel restrictions on Saturdays, Sundays or Bank Holiday Mondays. Restrictions apply to both Outward and Return Travel.

Valid on any train timed to depart at or later than the times shown below. Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into these trains.
Bath Spa 0825
The route allows
Map WX: Bath Spa - Salisbury - Woking - Clapham Junction - (Hounslow or Richmond) - Reading
Map BL: Reading - Slough - Paddington
This route is slow and would not allow you to reach Reading earlier than the 1013 via Swindon. But if you broke your journey at Basingstoke instead, and travelled Basingstoke - Reading - Basingstoke on another ticket or by another means, then map WC allows
0836 Bath Spa - Salisbury 0932
0945 Salisbury - 1027 Basingstoke 1031 - Waterloo 1119

EDIT Yes, I missed the validity on 0523 from Swindon, spotted by yorkie.
 

tony_mac

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I do have to travel via london, as that is the purpose of the trip. I got to reading via swindon today. I wasn't sure what restriction would apply in the morning as i will not be boarding a train from bath, swindon etc. I was hoping to leave at about nine.
 
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yorkie

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if you can be up very early, the 0557 is definitely valid. If you want a lie-in, the 1109 is definitely valid and I reckon the 1102 is valid too.

In between those times, the interpretation is difficult, and I wouldn't expect a barrier person to understand it, and wouldn't want an argument with them, so would buy a ticket to Reading West (£1.10) to avoid that 'discussion'. I would then strongly advise against boarding a train that originated at any place where the restriction 'XC' applies, in other words, if in a rush I would get a fast train that originated somewhere like Oxford.

However it would be safer to get a train to Waterloo, as this is a really complicated subject and you just don't know how the guard is going to interpret it, if a check is made. If you're travelling round London, I'd get a Travelcard in advance and use that to exit the barriers at Waterloo to avoid a 'discussion' with barrier staff who do not understand the restriction.

There are many barrier staff who seem to think there are blanket peak times, they think that TOCs have the right to decide to bar all off peak tickets from anywhere to anywhere at certain times, they do not understand that tickets have validity codes. It's not only beyond their training, but for some of them, given the pay is quite low, it may even be beyond their comprehension (this isn't an insult, it's the honest truth; you can't expect someone on a low wage to understand the complexities of our ticketing system, and neither can customers be expected to understand it!)

My opinion is that a valid itinerary would be 0523 Swindon - Reading, breakfast in Reading, then any train Reading - Waterloo, and any train forward to Eastbourne.

I believe that if going to Paddington, one interpretation would be that any train could be used after a break at Reading, another interpretation would be that any train other than the barred trains would be valid, but some staff may 'invent' an interpretation such as all HSTs are invalid (like what happens in the evening peak) or that all trains are barred from Reading to London until a Reading to London Off Peak ticket is valid, or goodness knows what other interpretations they may have!

In 2007 I did a valid BOJ at Slough, but the staff at Slough decided it wasn't valid for BOJ (they were wrong), I had to argue with them for around 30 minutes and they defaced my ticket. I did not want to miss my train in the morning so I bought a ticket to somewhere like Windsor or wherever to avoid that discussion. I see nothing wrong with buying a ticket that you will not use, in order to avoid badly trained, incorrect, and sometimes downright rude, barrier staff who do not know what they are talking about. The guards are who matter, and they were all fine with my, perfectly valid, ticket.

While I am not saying that all FGW barrier staff are like that, my experiences of FGW barrier staff and RPIs is such that my default position is I do not trust them to accept that a valid ticket is valid if the validity is complicated, and therefore I will try to minimise conflict with them. But when that conflict does occur, I ensure I win.
 

tony_mac

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I may try it. Do swt have penalty fares from reading? I don't know how often they really look at tickets, I travelled today from reading to bath and nobody even mentioned that my ticket was dated for yesterday.
 

yorkie

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I may try it. Do swt have penalty fares from reading? I don't know how often they really look at tickets, I travelled today from reading to bath and nobody even mentioned that my ticket was dated for yesterday.
Yes, they do, so don't lose your ticket/railcard!
 

John @ home

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I was hoping to leave [Reading] at about nine.
An excess fare to a SVR Eastbourne - Bath route Any Permitted would cost £13.30 (£8.80) and let you catch the 0945 Reading - Paddington 1014 or later. A Reading - London single is £18 (£11.90) route Any Permitted [£14.90 (£9.85) for arrival in London at or after 1000] and £13.60 (£9) route Staines. Railcard fares in brackets.
 

yorkie

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If you are wondering what the excess would be if they deem it invalid due to time restrictions, it could be £123.00 minus £42.70 = £80.30 (if the Anytime was deemed necessary) however this is more than the SOS which costs £61.70 so it would be cheaper to buy a new ticket (although they may refuse to allow the use of your railcard if a new ticket was needed in which case a new ticket would be £93.50 so maybe the excess would be cheaper... I am unsure on that.)

Just a reminder, you cannot be given a penalty fare for being off route, or invalid due to a time restriction; you can be excessed.


If challenged, I would argue that you are perfectly valid to start a journey at Swindon at 0523, arriving Reading 0556, you are perfectly entitled to go via Ascot, you are perfectly entitled to a couple of hours in Reading for breakfast, there is no restriction barring any train between Reading and Waterloo on that ticket, and you are totally valid and if any attempt is made to excess you, you will be writing to appeal the decision (you could try the 'I won't pay, call BTP' route but I am unsure if it is wise or not), I would insist that the RPI looked up the ticket restriction, and ask them to state where it says I cannot use any particular train into Waterloo (they won't be able to as no such restriction exists), and I would ensure their name was taken and make it clear that their line manager would be contacted. An RPI would be very unwise to excess without looking it all up, and by looking it all up they really should see there is nothing wrong with it.

In reality it is extremely unlikely that you will experience a problem, but you have to be prepared for the small number of troublemaking RPIs/barrier staff out there who do not adhere to the rules. There are some 'bad apples' out there and if you are not prepared for them, they can cause problems. The industry really should weed such individuals out rather than defend them, but that's another story.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
An excess fare to a SVR Eastbourne - Bath route Any Permitted would cost £13.30 (£8.80) and let you catch the 0945 Reading - Paddington 1014 or later. A Reading - London single is £18 (£11.90) route Any Permitted [£14.90 (£9.85) for arrival in London at or after 1000] and £13.60 (£9) route Staines. Railcard fares in brackets.
Yes, the single fares Reading-London aren't that high really so I wonder if it's easier to avoid the hassle and potential issues with the Bath-Eastbourne ticket.

An Off Peak Travelcard is valid on the 0934 from Reading, due Paddington 1002, and costs £12.85. If you were planning to get a Travelcard in London anyway, that would be £5 so only costing £7.85 extra.

It really depends on whether you are prepared to stand your ground - I believe the ticket is valid as long as you avoid the barred trains into Paddington, and definitely valid if taking a Waterloo train - or pay a few extra quid to avoid the hassle.
 

tony_mac

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Which adds up to costing me around thirty pounds, i would rather make them wait! Although i wonder how they will extract an excess from a foreign parent and child with no british cash!
 

yorkie

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If you are going with them, I'd go for it and fight your case if challenged.

If they are going without you, you could print off the restriction code & reasoning for it's validity so they can hand it over if required.
 

tony_mac

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not much to report - I ended up getting a train into Paddington at around 11am, and the ticket wasn't checked anywhere (it went through the barriers ok).

I got a reply from National Rail that said there was no restriction at all going from Reading into Waterloo.
 
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