Restriction J8

[north]

I am looking at CDR St Albans to Colchester. I'm wondering if I have understood the restriction text for J8 in NFM06 correctly.

OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train scheduled to
arrive at London Terminals at
or after 1000, Stratford
International or Stratford
(London) after 0950, Tottenham
Hale or Seven Sisters after
0940.

Not valid on any train
departing London Terminals
before 0930.

On the EastCoast booking site it shows the 0934 service from St Albans as valid on this ticket. However this train arrives into St Pancras before 1000.

By my understanding this would make the 0934 invalid.

Have I missed something? Or is EastCoast wrong?

Many Thanks

North

 

[OwlMan]

It depends on what is classed as the London Terminal for that train as it does not terminate in London.
Tickets from St Albans are issued to London Thameslink, not to London Terminals nor to St Pancras.
I would therefore assume that City Thameslink is considered the London Terminal and as the train arrives there at 1002 it is after 1000

Peter

 

[RJ]

I am looking at CDR St Albans to Colchester. I'm wondering if I have understood the restriction text for J8 in NFM06 correctly.



On the EastCoast booking site it shows the 0934 service from St Albans as valid on this ticket. However this train arrives into St Pancras before 1000.

By my understanding this would make the 0934 invalid.

Have I missed something? Or is EastCoast wrong?

Many Thanks

North

In this case, St Pancras International is part of London Thameslink and not London Terminals. The J8 restriction is applicable to the departure time from Liverpool Street or Stratford.

LS is the main restriction code for peak TL services.

 

[b0b]

How are you guys coming up with this London Thameslink distinction?

 

[north]

In this case, St Pancras International is part of London Thameslink and not London Terminals. The J8 restriction is applicable to the departure time from Liverpool Street or Stratford.

LS is the main restriction code for peak TL services.

St Pancras Domestic is part of London Terminals as a station group. I do not understand how the station group London Terminals can change on circumstance.

Also I do not understand how it is relevant that tickets from St Albans to London are made to London Thameslink. The ticket I'm looking at is not issued to London Thameslink. The station group London Terminals does not change (I assume?) and this is what is mentioned in the restriction.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Hmm, but until recently these tickets did not go through (as opposed to under) St Pancras at all, but rather to Kings Cross Thameslink, which (I think, unless anyone knows different) was not part of "London Terminals".

The FCC website has a page http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=77 that states that the validity of any tickets would not be affected by the move from Kings Cross Thameslink to the new sub-surface platforms at St Pancras.

(They say "It is our intention to ensure that no existing tickets such as Travelcards, London Thameslink or point-to-point Season Tickets are affected by this change and they should all be accepted at St Pancras International.")

I'm fairly sure that all tickets to St Pancras issued as "London Terminals" were (and are) those that were for routes that used the upstairs, terminal, station, not the through-line below ; i.e. longer distance tickets than those issued by Thameslink/FCC

Certainly tickets from stations on the Thameslink line north of KX Thameslink (i.e. up to Bedford) were issued to "London Thameslink" (with validity at KX Thameslink, Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate and - I think - City Thameslinnk) rather than "London Terminals".

So, on that basis, a ticket from St Albans via St Pancras would indeed be likely to be deemed as going via "London Thameslink", and NOT "London Terminals". If one thinks of St Pancras as three separate stations: Eurostar; surface level Domestic Mainline (including HS1); and the sub-surface replacement for Kings Cross Thameslink it kind of makes sense.

The explanations given by collybs and JB sound right to me

 

[hairyhandedfool]

London Thameslink was and is used for travel from stations between Bedford and West Hampstead Thameslink inclusive to the London stations served by Thameslink. Travel from any other station was/is to London Terminals, a specific London Thameslink station or a Travelcard zone.

For Thameslink services from the north, Kings Cross Thameslink (KCM) (now St. Pancras) was the London Terminal.

For Thameslink services from the south, London Terminals is City Thameslink (CTK), London Blackfriars (BFR) and London Bridge (LBG).

Travel to/from/via Farringdon (ZFD) requires either a ticket to London Thameslink, a ticket to a specific London Thameslink station or a ticket valid for cross London travel (e.g. with the '+' symbol).

However all of this is irreleveant as the ticket is not to London, it is to a station beyond London, London Thameslink only exists as a destination because the fares to KCM, ZFD, CTK, BFR and LBG were the same.

London Terminals applied to KCM and still applies to St Pancras, as was noted in section A of the NFM, and is now noted in the FRPP.

 

[b0b]

I think you're giving the booking engine too much credit.. I bet it thinks the st albans train is valid because it's destination is not a london terminal and it does not realize that the train passes through a London terminal.... I can't think the 0934 is valid, the furthest London terminal a ticket valid from the north is st pancras.

As always print out the itinerary from the website, so you have evidence if challenged.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
St Albans 09:34 FC
Farringdon Und 09:58
Train continues to Brighton

London Underground from Farringdon Und to London Liverpool Street

London Liverpool Street 10:30
Colchester 11:21
Train continues to Norwich

 

[John Webb]

As someone who very occasionally uses the 09:34 service from St Albans to get into London I can confirm that this train is 'off-peak'.

The stupid thing is that at St Albans the 'off-peak' carpark charge doesn't start until 10am......!

 

[b0b]

As someone who very occasionally uses the 09:34 service from St Albans to get into London I can confirm that this train is 'off-peak'

Off peak has nothing to with trains and all to do with the ticket held and its associated restriction codes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As someone who very occasionally uses the 09:34 service from St Albans to get into London I can confirm that this train is 'off-peak'.

A St Albans to London Thameslink CDR has a LS restriction code, different from J8. LS allows any train from St Albans on or after 0929.

 

[John @ home]

My opinion is that an arrival from the north at City Thameslink at 1002 is regarded as a "train scheduled to arrive at London Terminals at or after 1000" [Restriction J8] because certain assurances were given when Moorgate closed as a London Terminal for Thameslink services.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There is an error in the data somewhere.

On my Fastis, trains as early as 0832 from St Albans (0930 from Liverpool St) are shown as valid with a J8 restricted fare, however they are shown as changing at Farringdon, where a change at St Pancras is specified they are shown as not valid. Trains earlier than the 0832 are presumably not meeting the Stratford restriction.

To check this, I found another J8 restricted fare, East Croydon to Colchester. This naturally suggested changing at London Bridge and Stratford and was correct in not allowing arrivals at London Bridge before 1000 (the 0933 frrom Croydon is restricted as it arrives at London Bridge at 0952 but the 1002 from Croydon is fine). However by specifying a change at Farringdon, it allowed services leaving East Croydon at 0821 (0930 from Liverpool St).

I think the error centres around Farringdon not being a London Terminal, the system then thinks you are fine to use the train to there, but you are not.

My opinion is that an arrival from the north at City Thameslink at 1002 is regarded as a "train scheduled to arrive at London Terminals at or after 1000" [Restriction J8] because certain assurances were given when Moorgate closed as a London Terminal for Thameslink services.

The agreement is for travel from Kings Cross/St Pancras to Farringdon/Barbican/Moorgate by LUL services only. Not FCCs Thameslink services (according to the 'London' section of the FRPP). London Terminals tickets are not valid for travel on FCC between St Pancras and City Thameslink.

 

[b0b]

There is an error in the data somewhere.

I don't think there's an error in the data, I think there's an error in the algorithm that figures out valid trains. It's either:

(a) not checking the route of the Thameslink service to make sure it does not arrive at the last London Terminal before 1000; or

(b) checking the route of the Thameslink service and discovering the train calls at a London Terminal after 1000; but is not understanding that the definition of London Terminals varies on the Thameslink line depending on whether you are heading south (last London Terminal is St Pancras Intl) and heading north (last London Terminal is City Thameslink)

Note the algorithm is checking the change point to see if that is a London Terminal. I wonder if hairyhandedfools East Croydon example would be allowed if you specify St Pancras as the changing point.... ie. does the algorithm understand the different London Terminals rule, since St Pancras is not a London Terminal when coming from the south via the Thameslink route.

However you're unlikely to get in trouble for using the 0934 as an FCC RPI probably thinks the LS restriction applies to your ticket and would not question it since you're boarding a train on or after 0929.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the error centres around Farringdon not being a London Terminal, the system then thinks you are fine to use the train to there, but you are not.

Farringdon is not a London Terminal.

 

[yorkie]

As someone who very occasionally uses the 09:34 service from St Albans to get into London I can confirm that this train is 'off-peak'.

Trains are not peak or off peak. Tickets have restrictions that determine which trains are valid or not. If you get a St Albans to Peterborough Off Peak ticket, then all trains between St Albans and London are considered 'off-peak' for that ticket and vice-versa for the return journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't think there's an error in the data, I think there's an error in the algorithm that figures out valid trains....

Algorithms, data, its all the same to a non techy like me!

....I wonder if hairyhandedfools East Croydon example would be allowed if you specify St Pancras as the changing point.... ie. does the algorithm understand the different London Terminals rule, since St Pancras is not a London Terminal when coming from the south via the Thameslink route....

Via St Pancras shows the first valid train as the 0947 from Croydon, 1017 at St Pancras (London Bridge at 1000 - Presumably this train doesn't have the recommended underground journey time from London Bridge to Stratford/Liverpool St. for a connection to show from there). The issue is clearly to do with changing at Farringdon.

....Farringdon is not a London Terminal.

That's what I said.... Although I can see how it could be read wrongly.