Restriction code technical query

[trebor79]

I want to travel from station A to station C via London, breaking my journey in London. I need to be in London for about 0830 and will leave for station C after the evening peak.
I can buy an off peak return from A to C via London that fits my plan and is a third of the price of the (absurdly expensive) open return.
Checking the restriction code, it is "not valid for trains that depart station B between two times in the morning peak".

Station B is a station between A and London.

Clearly, it would not be permitted for me to travel on a train that stops to pick up passengers at B between the stated times. However:
1. If travel on a train that does not stop at B, my ticket would be valid on the basis a train can't "depart"a station it doesn't call at?
2. Would my ticket be valid if the train called at B for set-down only between the stated times?
3. Would my ticket be valid if I got off the train at B or a station before B and used a different valid route to complete my journey?

Thanks for advice and yes I'm being deliberately obtuse about stations and times for obvious reasons!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I want to travel from station A to station C via London, breaking my journey in London. I need to be in London for about 0830 and will leave for station C after the evening peak.
I can buy an off peak return from A to C via London that fits my plan and is a third of the price of the (absurdly expensive) open return.
Checking the restriction code, it is "not valid for trains that depart station B between two times in the morning peak".

Station B is a station between A and London.

Clearly, it would not be permitted for me to travel on a train that stops to pick up passengers at B between the stated times. However:
1. If travel on a train that does not stop at B, my ticket would be valid on the basis a train can't "depart"a station it doesn't call at?
2. Would my ticket be valid if the train called at B for set-down only between the stated times?
3. Would my ticket be valid if I got off the train at B or a station before B and used a different valid route to complete my journey?

Thanks for advice and yes I'm being deliberately obtuse about stations and times for obvious reasons!

Have you tried putting your itinerary into a journey planner to see if the ticket you want is offered?

if the planner will sell it to you, you’re home and dry: if not then you may still get somewhere by exploring the rules - but it seems to me that you will also be in the realm of having to argue with staff during your journey.

 

[Watershed]

I want to travel from station A to station C via London, breaking my journey in London. I need to be in London for about 0830 and will leave for station C after the evening peak.
I can buy an off peak return from A to C via London that fits my plan and is a third of the price of the (absurdly expensive) open return.
Checking the restriction code, it is "not valid for trains that depart station B between two times in the morning peak".

Station B is a station between A and London.

Clearly, it would not be permitted for me to travel on a train that stops to pick up passengers at B between the stated times. However:
1. If travel on a train that does not stop at B, my ticket would be valid on the basis a train can't "depart"a station it doesn't call at?
2. Would my ticket be valid if the train called at B for set-down only between the stated times?
3. Would my ticket be valid if I got off the train at B or a station before B and used a different valid route to complete my journey?

Thanks for advice and yes I'm being deliberately obtuse about stations and times for obvious reasons!

If the only relevant restriction is for station B, then:

1. That's correct - a train only departs stations where it stops.

2. I would have said so. The rail industry doesn't regard a set down only call as a valid departure for that station and would say that split ticketing can't be done there; it also wouldn't be listed on the departure boards.

3. If there are no restrictions on arriving at B, then that would be fine.

Feel free to PM if you want to check the details with me!

 

[trebor79]

Have you tried putting your itinerary into a journey planner to see if the ticket you want is offered?

if the planner will sell it to you, you’re home and dry: if not then you may still get somewhere by exploring the rules - but it seems to me that you will also be in the realm of having to argue with staff during your journey.

To be honest I find most of the journey planners absolutely hopeless these days. Quite often they will claim there are no valid tickets or no trains at the time I want to travel, which is absolute nonsense.
I guess because so many trains now are marked reservation compulsory in the data, even though they aren't, and are "sold out" when I'm making my enquiry.

If the only relevant restriction is for station B, then:

1. That's correct - a train only departs stations where it stops.

2. I would have said so. The rail industry doesn't regard a set down only call as a valid departure for that station and would say that split ticketing can't be done there; it also wouldn't be listed on the departure boards.

3. If there are no restrictions on arriving at B, then that would be fine.

Feel free to PM if you want to check the details with me!

Thanks, that's what I thought.
Quite happy to discuss with a ticket checker. Done that before "this is an off peak ticket, it's not valid on this train". "Please check the actual restriction code" "Oh".

 

[miklcct]

Can you please post the actual ticket and your intended journey such that we can check further?

 

[trebor79]

Can you please post the actual ticket and your intended journey such that we can check further?

Unfortunately not as in the past when I've mentioned such specifics I find the ticket is removed from sale or has some daft routing restriction slapped on it.
Has been confirmed in a PM that I'm golden.

 

[30907]

Unfortunately not as in the past when I've mentioned such specifics I find the ticket is removed from sale or has some daft routing restriction slapped on it.

Very wise!

To give an historic (1980ish) example, Cheap Day Returns on the SR were valid "from 0930" within the old suburban (=LT/LPTB) area but from further out it was "not valid to arrive London SR before 1000" which produced some anomalies - somewhere like Horsham was a "0930" but Christ's Hospital was a "1000," so longer distance passengers got the better deal by half-an-hour or so in terms of London arrivals!
(Note - these are from memory and Horsham was definitely an edge case!)

 

[infobleep]

To be honest I find most of the journey planners absolutely hopeless these days. Quite often they will claim there are no valid tickets or no trains at the time I want to travel, which is absolute nonsense.

The other issue is if you wish to buy a train ticket to or from a station that doesn't have a service at the time of travel. For example you might be doing A to C via B where C has no service at that tine but you are happy to finish short at B.

 

[trebor79]

Very wise!

To give an historic (1980ish) example, Cheap Day Returns on the SR were valid "from 0930" within the old suburban (=LT/LPTB) area but from further out it was "not valid to arrive London SR before 1000" which produced some anomalies - somewhere like Horsham was a "0930" but Christ's Hospital was a "1000," so longer distance passengers got the better deal by half-an-hour or so in terms of London arrivals!
(Note - these are from memory and Horsham was definitely an edge case!)

And a more recent example. X to Y not via London used to be a nice cheap way to get to "not London" station with tube interchange.
It was obliquely mentioned on here and then that ticket was pulled and replaced with X to Y via Z (probably along with a load of similar fares)

The other issue is if you wish to buy a train ticket to or from a station that doesn't have a service at the time of travel. For example you might be doing A to C via B where C has no service at that tine but you are happy to finish short at B.

Yep. Seems increasingly difficult to just buy a ticket without having to have an itinerary. Even some ticket machines "work" the same way now.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The other issue is if you wish to buy a train ticket to or from a station that doesn't have a service at the time of travel. For example you might be doing A to C via B where C has no service at that tine but you are happy to finish short at B.

Yep. Seems increasingly difficult to just buy a ticket without having to have an itinerary. Even some ticket machines "work" the same way now.

In fairness, for normals this is probably a benefit - that they can't buy a ticket which won't do what it says. Wanting a ticket to C which can't possibly get you there (because C has no service that day) is - at first glance at least - a pretty bizarre thing to want to do.

 

[trebor79]

In fairness, for normals this is probably a benefit - that they can't buy a ticket which won't do what it says. Wanting a ticket to C which can't possibly get you there (because C has no service that day) is - at first glance at least - a pretty bizarre thing to want to do.

Agreed. But it's annoying when I just want an off peak ticket between A and B and the stupid thing tells me "there are no trains for this journey", or tells me I have to leave at 2230 the night before, or something equally daft.

 

[andythebrave]

Agreed. But it's annoying when I just want an off peak ticket between A and B and the stupid thing tells me "there are no trains for this journey", or tells me I have to leave at 2230 the night before, or something equally daft.

In my case it is somewhat frustrating that I can't get an online planner to sell a ticket out Saturday back Sunday because there are no services down here on a Sunday but stopping short on the return occasionally means a cheaper ticket than two singles and works as the 'short' station is only 4 miles away and has a regular Sunday service.
It is occasionally possible to get the same ticket with a Monday return and actually come back on Sunday but not always.

 

[infobleep]

In my case it is somewhat frustrating that I can't get an online planner to sell a ticket out Saturday back Sunday because there are no services down here on a Sunday but stopping short on the return occasionally means a cheaper ticket than two singles and works as the 'short' station is only 4 miles away and has a regular Sunday service.
It is occasionally possible to get the same ticket with a Monday return and actually come back on Sunday but not always.

I agree with this user case and it was also one I thought of when replying, although I didn't mention it.

 

[Wallsendmag]

So you're arguing that journey planners should retail tickets for journeys that are impossible to make?

 

[infobleep]

So you're arguing that journey planners should retail tickets for journeys that are impossible to make?

Yes because starting and finishing short is permitted on most walk up tickets.

For example, if someone is travelling from A via B to C and then returning latwr only to B and not C, they will want a return ticket. However, at the time they are returning, there may be no service to C.

 

[trebor79]

So you're arguing that journey planners should retail tickets for journeys that are impossible to make?

No, I'm saying they should be able to simply sell an open ticket from A to B without having to generate an itinerary. Whilst we're at it can they also clearly tell us which actual ticket it's selling, rather than just displaying a price.
That shouldn't be hard.

 

[swaldman]

Yes because starting and finishing short is permitted on most walk up tickets.

Is that a (slightly) recent change?
I remember in the late 90s, lots of my schoolfriends used to have tickets to the stop beyond where the school was because they were cheaper, and at some point the TOC got fed up and started fining them all for (if memory serves) "travelling short".

These *might* have been season tickets though - not sure.

 

[signed]

Is that a (slightly) recent change?

I suspect most walk-up tickets allow for BoJ

 

[jfollows]

Is that a (slightly) recent change?
I remember in the late 90s, lots of my schoolfriends used to have tickets to the stop beyond where the school was because they were cheaper, and at some point the TOC got fed up and started fining them all for (if memory serves) "travelling short".

These *might* have been season tickets though - not sure.

No, not a recent change.
Advance tickets have been around for a while, and don’t allow starting or finishing short.
Season tickets, on the other hand, allow short journeys along any valid part of the route, and always have done.
Most day returns, open returns, off-peak returns allow break of journey, however some off-peak returns don’t allow it on the outbound half, which is also usually only valid for one day.

 

[swaldman]

No, not a recent change.
Advance tickets have been around for a while, and don’t allow starting or finishing short.
Season tickets, on the other hand, allow short journeys along any valid part of the route, and always have done.
Most day returns, open returns, off-peak returns allow break of journey, however some off-peak returns don’t allow it on the outbound half, which is also usually only valid for one day.

Huh, strange. No advance tickets on the route in question at the time, so I don't know what was going on there. Thanks.

 

[nwales58]

Is that a (slightly) recent change?
I remember in the late 90s, lots of my schoolfriends used to have tickets to the stop beyond where the school was because they were cheaper, and at some point the TOC got fed up and started fining them all for (if memory serves) "travelling short".

Very different in the 80s-early 90s. You could not stop short if the fare was higher (e.g. Gatwick). Conversely travelling slightly further was allowed as long as there was no difference in fare. Unlike today when you are legally in trouble with a £294 Paddington-Cardiff SOR and continue to Heath which is the same fare.

8A off-peak returns are the main break of journey exception nowadays. Thanks TfW.