Restriction code BT validity times from Shipley-Derby

[mm333]

I'm going from Shipley-Derby for the day tomorrow, travelling out first thing on 0607 and coming back around 1800.

Brfares and split.traintimes.org.uk say that an off peak return (SVR) is valid as the restriction (code BT) is "valid except on trains departing before 0430." http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SHY&dest=DBY&tkt=SVR

But both the EC and EMT booking websites tell me the first train I can use is the 0735 from Shipley, connecting into the 0811 from Leeds, arriving at Derby at 0925.

Looking it up on Nationalrail.co.uk confirms it's validity code BT and only not valid before 0430, but still won't give me the 0607 train.

Who's right?

 

[Romilly]

Restriction code BT also says that, if travel is to/from or via Luton or London, codes CI and CJ also apply. Those codes exclude travel on trains timed to arrive at London St Pancras before 1126.

Your 0607 journey involves travelling on two trains that are headed for St Pancras. It seems to me that NRE and the other journey planners are applying restriction CI because you are on a train that is travelling to London even though you are not travelling to/from or via London. Others may have a view as to whether the journey planners have got it right.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One option might be to buy separate tickets for different parts of your journey:

Shipley-Sheffield anytime day return (not via Doncaster) £14.40
Sheffield-Derby anytime day return £20.90

This would be valid so long as your train(s) call at Sheffield and don't go via Doncaster (so only a few journey options are excluded).

The only cheaper split I have found would involve travelling on trains that call at Darton:

Shipley-Darton Anytime Day Return £10.80
Darton-Derby Anytime Day Return £21.90

but outward this would involve the following journey:

Shipley 0613 - Leeds 0627
Leeds 0638 - Sheffield 0758 (calling Darton at 0719)
Sheffield 0820 - Derby 0850

Incidentally, the £37.20 Shipley-Derby offpeak return would be valid on this itinerary as none of the trains involved are headed for London.

 

[button_boxer]

Sheffield to Attenborough (£18.60 Anytime Day Return) is valid via Derby, though it probably won't work the Derby barrier so you'll have to convince the gateline staff that it's valid to stop short.

The Sheffield-Derby/Nottingham fares are a bit of a mess. Sheffield to Nottingham is valid via Derby and Sheffield to Derby is valid via Nottingham. Off-peak the Derby tickets are cheaper but for Anytimes Nottingham is the cheaper one.

So Sheffield to Derby peak time, buy a ticket to Attenborough (priced the same as Nottingham), and Sheffield to Nottingham off peak buy to Long Eaton (priced the same as Derby).

 

[furlong]

But both the EC and EMT booking websites tell me the first train I can use is the 0735 from Shipley, connecting into the 0811 from Leeds, arriving at Derby at 0925.

Looking it up on Nationalrail.co.uk confirms it's validity code BT and only not valid before 0430, but still won't give me the 0607 train.

So perhaps contact those booking websites to suggest that they correct this information immediately, that they investigate how long they have been overcharging their customers and that they should contact all those who selected these journeys to apologise and offer compensation?

 

[yorkie]

So perhaps contact those booking websites to suggest that they correct this information immediately, that they investigate how long they have been overcharging their customers and that they should contact all those who selected these journeys to apologise and offer compensation?

I could list loads of journey opportunities where passengers are either told there are "no fares" or charged a much higher fare.

(If anyone from Which?, Watchdog or any other media outlet is interested, feel free to contact me for details, as there are so many of these problems and the rail industry doesn't - in my opinion - take them seriously enough!)

Edit: well that didn't take long PM received, will reply shortly!

 

[Deerfold]

So perhaps contact those booking websites to suggest that they correct this information immediately, that they investigate how long they have been overcharging their customers and that they should contact all those who selected these journeys to apologise and offer compensation?

Are they not correctly denying travel on the trains heading for London?

I know when travelling to London on an off-peak ticket I can catch almost any train from Keighley to Leeds in the morning (enabling breakfast in Leeds station to be consumed) except for the 0708 East Coast service because the ticket restriction is based on the arrival time into London of any train caught.

 

[OwlMan]

So perhaps contact those booking websites to suggest that they correct this information immediately, that they investigate how long they have been overcharging their customers and that they should contact all those who selected these journeys to apologise and offer compensation?

But it is not the websites' data - they use ATOC data.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are they not correctly denying travel on the trains heading for London?

Only if Derby has suddenly moved to just outside Luton.

 

[Deerfold]

Only if Derby has suddenly moved to just outside Luton.

Yes, it seems the booking engines are working on whether the train is going to London rather than the OP - correct for some restriction codes but not this one.

 

[furlong]

But it is not the websites' data - they use ATOC data.

To what degree the (presumably confidential) contracts with the various suppliers of a ticket retailing business indemnify that company against the consequences of quoting artificially-inflated prices is surely none of the customer's concern.

Worse, if evidence came to light that the industry had been made aware of these problems some time ago and failed to take appropriate action such that it might then have been knowingly or even, I hestitate to say, deliberately, overcharging some uninformed customers, then perhaps that would constitute grounds for an appropriate body to open a formal investigation.

Had I found I had been caught out by a problem like this and been overcharged, I'd be writing directly to the managing director of the company concerned and the clock would start ticking if the problem was not addressed satisfactorily immediately.

 

[RJ]

The attachment of CI/CJ codes to the BT restriction was relatively recent. It was most likely done because I identified BT coded Off Peak fares that were valid on the MML from West Hampstead northwards - then used them repeatedly to facilitate cheap travel between St Pancras and the East Midlands during the "morning peak."

As with many changes made to close loopholes, it appears there has been an unintended side effect here - it might be worth complaining to East Midlands Trains about it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

it might be worth complaining to East Midlands Trains about it.

The fare setter for Shipley to Derby is CrossCountry, so probably worth complaining to them too.

It's clear the restriction is being mis-applied, although the outcome of any complaint will merely be a re-wording of the restriction.

 

[SickyNicky]

Fujitsu have not got back to me about the original BT code issue, despite them logging it as a bug. I will chase it now.

 

[RJ]

If it helps, this is what the fares data says about the restriction. Interesting that the Off Peak tickets with the BT code have Super Off Peak restrictions attached to them - confusing at all?

Code	OutOrRtn	Location        	Start   End     ArriveDepartOrVia
BT  	O       	NULL            	02:30	04:29	D                
BT  	R       	NULL            	02:30	04:29	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON EUSTON   	04:30	09:25	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON EUSTON   	15:01	18:44	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	04:30	09:05	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	04:30	11:16	A                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	04:30	09:05	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	04:30	11:16	A                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	14:58	18:14	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	14:58	18:58	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	14:58	00:00	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	14:58	00:00	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	14:58	00:00	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON KINGS X  	14:58	00:00	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	15:00	18:14	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	15:00	18:58	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	15:00	00:00	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	15:00	00:00	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	15:00	00:00	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON KINGS X  	15:00	00:00	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON LIVRPL ST	04:30	10:25	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON LIVRPL ST	15:16	18:58	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON LIVRPL ST	15:16	18:58	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON MARYLEBNE	04:30	10:25	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON MARYLEBNE	15:16	18:58	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON MARYLEBNE	15:16	18:58	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON PADDINGTN	04:30	10:09	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON PADDINGTN	04:30	10:09	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON PADDINGTN	15:02	19:00	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON PADDINGTN	15:02	19:00	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON ST PANCRS	02:30	10:28	D                
BT  	O       	LONDON ST PANCRS	02:30	11:25	A                
BT  	R       	LONDON ST PANCRS	02:30	10:28	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON ST PANCRS	02:30	11:25	A                
BT  	O       	LONDON ST PANCRS	15:16	18:58	D                
BT  	R       	LONDON ST PANCRS	15:16	18:58	D                
BT  	O       	LUTON AIRPORT PW	02:30	11:15	A                
BT  	R       	LUTON AIRPORT PW	02:30	11:15	A                
BT  	O       	LUTON AIRPORT PW	04:30	10:50	D                
BT  	R       	LUTON AIRPORT PW	04:30	10:50	D                
BT  	O       	LUTON AIRPORT PW	15:09	19:09	D                
BT  	R       	LUTON AIRPORT PW	15:09	19:09	D                
BT  	O       	LUTON.          	02:30	11:03	A                
BT  	R       	LUTON.          	02:30	11:03	A                
BT  	O       	LUTON.          	04:30	10:24	D                
BT  	R       	LUTON.          	04:30	10:24	D                
BT  	O       	LUTON.          	15:24	19:22	D                
BT  	R       	LUTON.          	15:24	19:22	D

 

[bb21]

The fare setter for Shipley to Derby is CrossCountry, so probably worth complaining to them too.

It's clear the restriction is being mis-applied, although the outcome of any complaint will merely be a re-wording of the restriction.

Yes, complain to them and you will see them changed to 2V.

Don't do it is my recommendation.