Restriction 8A - restrictions on return leg?

[Fawkes Cat]

Historically, there have been some very good value first class fares priced by TfW. Looking at one of these and trying to understand the restrictions which are now in place, I see that restriction 8A applies. BR Fares.com gives this as

VALIDITY
One journey in each direction to be made within:
Outward Validity: AS ADVERTISED (1 day)
Break of journey is prohibited by this fare's restrictions
Return Validity: AS ADVERTISED (1 month)
RESTRICTIONS
The validity of this fare may be additionally restricted as shown below. These restrictions (if any) are a copy of those published by the rail industry, and are binding on passengers.
Restriction Code: 8A

Restricted Days:

Monday to Friday

Outward Travel
No time restriction

Return Travel
No time restriction.

Notes
Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.

While the National Rail site says much the same, only rather more briefly (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/8a/):

Restrictions
Applicable Days
Monday to Friday

Outward Travel
No time restriction

Return Travel
No time restriction.

Notes
Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.

My question is - is break of journey not permitted on the return leg? I've previously read what's on BRFares to mean that only the outward leg was restricted, but I'm now wondering if the element in the Notes applies both ways. And out of interest, I'm not sure if that means that I previously misread it, or whether restrictions have been tightened further.

 

[Benjwri]

Break of journey is not permitted on either leg. BRFares is showing what the data shows, however your contractual right is to what is displayed to you at purchase, if this is an NRE link then break of journey is not allowed on either leg, and all sites I have checked show the same as NRE.

 

[Djgr]

I think 8A is an outlier exception and from I've heard was a mistake

 

[Lewisham2221]

I think 8A is an outlier exception and from I've heard was a mistake

Are you sure about that? I think there's a reason why there's no Anytime fares for the 8A flows

 

[Djgr]

Are you sure about that? I think there's a reason why there's no Anytime fares for the 8A flows

I am sure that I read on the Forum that forbidding break of journey on the return leg for 8A fares was an oversight.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I am sure that I read on the Forum that forbidding break of journey on the return leg for 8A fares was an oversight.

I was told it was due to abuse/fraud regarding misuse of the "flexibility" offered by a ticket without those restrictions

 

[Djgr]

I was told it was due to abuse/fraud regarding misuse of the "flexibility" offered by a ticket without those restrictions

But virtually all return tickets have this potential abuse by allowing break of journey on the return and so the above offers no explanation about why 8A should be singled out.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Break of journey is not permitted on either leg. BRFares is showing what the data shows, however your contractual right is to what is displayed to you at purchase, if this is an NRE link then break of journey is not allowed on either leg, and all sites I have checked show the same as NRE.

Thank you. That's how I read it too. Which is a shame.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

Fascinating. I hadn't noticed that 8A prohibits break of journey entirely and this hasn't always been the case. Knowledgebase allows lookup of historical restrictions and I can see that up to NFM28 (until 01/01/2018) break of journey was only prohibited on the outward leg. Since NFM29 (from 02/01/2018) break of journey has been prohibited in both directions.

There are in fact flows where 8A restricted Off-Peak fares co-exist with Anytime fares - I'll offer Manchester to Oxenholme as an example. There are SVS/SVR and SDS/SOR fares, all route Preston (set by Northern). It's difficult to imagine what fraud might be perpetrated by using an Off-Peak ticket here or to see any financial benefit in starting or ending the journey at an intermediate station.

There is another restriction code 2T, which for practical purposes has no time restrictions (not valid before 04:15), where break of journey is permitted in both directions. An example is Wigan to Carlisle where, again, SVR and SOR fares co-exist (set by Avanti).

Although I'm inclined to think that the current 8A restrictions have probably come about by oversight or error, it seems that TOCs may have the choice of using 8A or 2T depending on whether they wish to prohibit break of journey or not.

 

[Watershed]

Fascinating. I hadn't noticed that 8A prohibits break of journey entirely and this hasn't always been the case. Knowledgebase allows lookup of historical restrictions and I can see that up to NFM28 (until 01/01/2018) break of journey was only prohibited on the outward leg. Since NFM29 (from 02/01/2018) break of journey has been prohibited in both directions.

There are in fact flows where 8A restricted Off-Peak fares co-exist with Anytime fares - I'll offer Manchester to Oxenholme as an example. There are SVS/SVR and SDS/SOR fares, all route Preston (set by Northern). It's difficult to imagine what fraud might be perpetrated by using an Off-Peak ticket here or to see any financial benefit in starting or ending the journey at an intermediate station.

There is another restriction code 2T, which for practical purposes has no time restrictions (not valid before 04:15), where break of journey is permitted in both directions. An example is Wigan to Carlisle where, again, SVR and SOR fares co-exist (set by Avanti).

Although I'm inclined to think that the current 8A restrictions have probably come about by oversight or error, it seems that TOCs may have the choice of using 8A or 2T depending on whether they wish to prohibit break of journey or not.

I don't think it's even that deliberate. Avanti simply use 2T for some of their non-London-area SVRs, whilst TfW use 8A for all(?) of their SVRs.

TPE used to use 8A on many of their SVRs and when they transferred control of the fares on the Manchester-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere, Northern generally kept these restrictions.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

I don't think it's even that deliberate. Avanti simply use 2T for some of their non-London-area SVRs, whilst TfW use 8A for all(?) of their SVRs.

TPE used to use 8A on many of their SVRs and when they transferred control of the fares on the Manchester-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere, Northern generally kept these restrictions.

Hmm, that being the case, it seems even less likely that the 8A prohibition of break of journey on the return journey was intentional. I can understand why TOCs might want to do that on the outward journey, as with Avanti's 3A etc., but I can't see the logic of later extending it to the return journey. I wonder if any TOCs actually requested the change (and if any objected) or if it happened accidentally when the break of journey text was moved verbatim from the Outward section of the data to the Notes section, where it applies to both legs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

it happened accidentally when the break of journey text was moved verbatim from the Outward section of the data to the Notes section, where it applies to both legs

I strongly suspect this as it coincided with a change of some sort to how these were stored. It was a very long time ago though so my memory is very vague.

 

[Watershed]

Hmm, that being the case, it seems even less likely that the 8A prohibition of break of journey on the return journey was intentional. I can understand why TOCs might want to do that on the outward journey, as with Avanti's 3A etc., but I can't see the logic of later extending it to the return journey. I wonder if any TOCs actually requested the change (and if any objected) or if it happened accidentally when the break of journey text was moved verbatim from the Outward section of the data to the Notes section, where it applies to both legs.

The only logic I can come up with is that it prevents the reuse of the return portion as a quasi-season ticket. Let's say that someone commutes from Chester to Rhyl - the BoJ restriction means they can't buy a Helsby to Abergele SVR and then claim to have "broken their journey" at Chester on a previous day. It would not have been a permitted break of journey.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

The only logic I can come up with is that it prevents the reuse of the return portion as a quasi-season ticket. Let's say that someone commutes from Chester to Rhyl - the BoJ restriction means they can't buy a Helsby to Abergele SVR and then claim to have "broken their journey" at Chester on a previous day. It would not have been a permitted break of journey.

Yes, quite possibly. A bit like using an SOR as a five-day season ticket (defeated by the introduction of the SHR). You'd think that might apply equally to the 2T restricted tickets though, so I wonder why 8A was singled out.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Yes, quite possibly. A bit like using an SOR as a five-day season ticket (defeated by the introduction of the SHR). You'd think that might apply equally to the 2T restricted tickets though, so I wonder why 8A was singled out.

I suspect that TfW adopted it as they offer some quite cheap long distance fares which undercut shorter journeys priced by other TOCs (n.b. not an original thought - I think someone else suggested it when 8A was first applied by TfW to a number of fares).

 

[Starmill]

Break of journey is not clearly defined any more, and to be honest, it's basically impossible to enforce anyway. So, if you want to stop off for two hours for a meal or drinks or whatever, then I am not sure anyone will or could stop you. Of course if you want an overnight stop, then that very clearly would be a "break of journey" so you couldn't do that. The only exception would be if the timetable meant you couldn't complete your journey the same day, then an overnight stop may not be a break of journey, however I am assuming that nothing like that applies here, and it would be relatively uncommon.

 

[redreni]

The only logic I can come up with is that it prevents the reuse of the return portion as a quasi-season ticket. Let's say that someone commutes from Chester to Rhyl - the BoJ restriction means they can't buy a Helsby to Abergele SVR and then claim to have "broken their journey" at Chester on a previous day. It would not have been a permitted break of journey.

Endorsing the ticket with the date and location of the check would make misuse as a season ticket difficult, as any future travel subsequent to such a check and endorsement would really need to be further along a permitted route between the origin and the destination (of the return portion) than the location of the check.

Funnily enough I've just returned home using the return half of a super off-peak return; I made several breaks of journey.

The only person who checked my ticket who bothered to endorse it was a rather experienced looking chap on the ticket barrier at East Croydon, who took a great deal of time and trouble (almost to the point of making me miss my intended train) to write today's date on the ticket in biro, pressing down hard to make an indentation in the ticket.

But as he didn't write where the ticket had been checked, as you say there would be little to stop a dishonest person making extensive re-use of it and just saying they are resuming after a break of journey.

As long as they're not trying to get through the gateline at the point of origin, they could make out the previous ticket check had occurred on an earlier portion of the journey.

 

[kieron]

Fascinating. I hadn't noticed that 8A prohibits break of journey entirely and this hasn't always been the case. Knowledgebase allows lookup of historical restrictions and I can see that up to NFM28 (until 01/01/2018) break of journey was only prohibited on the outward leg. Since NFM29 (from 02/01/2018) break of journey has been prohibited in both directions.

For a few months after that nre.co.uk gave blanket permission to break your journey on the return part of any off peak ticket; the most recent copy I know of which allowed this is dated 14/05/2018 (link).

Although I'm inclined to think that the current 8A restrictions have probably come about by oversight or error, it seems that TOCs may have the choice of using 8A or 2T depending on whether they wish to prohibit break of journey or not.

The way I read this suggested to me that you think 8A and 2T are the only restriction codes Avanti could have used to permit use all day. There are several others, and some off peak tickets have no restriction code at all (even outside Scotland).

Avanti (or their predecessors) do seem to have made a choice along those lines, but it's between 2T (used for Glasgow-Birmingham) and 2U (used for Glasgow-Coventry) rather than 8A, which I think they only used when trying to undercut other operators' 8A fares. 2U is one of the codes which bars break of journey on the outward leg.

8A was mainly used by TfW (or their predecessors), Northern (for tickets to/from the Windermere branch) and SWR (for weekend-only tickets) in 2018.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

For a few months after that nre.co.uk gave blanket permission to break your journey on the return part of any off peak ticket; the most recent copy I know of which allowed this is dated 14/05/2018 (link).


The way I read this suggested to me that you think 8A and 2T are the only restriction codes Avanti could have used to permit use all day. There are several others, and some off peak tickets have no restriction code at all (even outside Scotland).

Avanti (or their predecessors) do seem to have made a choice along those lines, but it's between 2T (used for Glasgow-Birmingham) and 2U (used for Glasgow-Coventry) rather than 8A, which I think they only used when trying to undercut other operators' 8A fares. 2U is one of the codes which bars break of journey on the outward leg.

8A was mainly used by TfW (or their predecessors), Northern (for tickets to/from the Windermere branch) and SWR (for weekend-only tickets) in 2018.

I think the fact that NRE contradicted (at the time at least) the change to the 8A restriction lends weight to the theory that the change was an unintended consequence of either moving the text to the wrong section of the data or not amending it to refer only to the outward journey when it was moved.

My recollection is that the phrase 'Break of journey is permitted unless indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code' was added to the Outward section of the SVR fare conditions while the NFM was still a set of printed manuals and initially affected mostly (perhaps only) Virgin Trains fares. It would be interesting to know when it was added to the Return section.

Had someone asked me (and they probably have during the last few years) whether break of journey was permitted on the return portion of an 8A ticket I would have confidently said that it was. Obviously I'd have checked if it was critical, but the OP had the same understanding and that led me to investigate further. I wasn't necessarily suggesting that 8A and 2T were the only restrictions with, effectively, no time contraints, I just found it interesting that TOCs might have a ready-made choice of such restrictions to use, depending on whether they wished to prohibit break of journey or not.

It strikes me that Off-Peak fares with no restriction code (ScotRail and, as you say, others) are problematic. A journey planner will happily sell them as there's no restriction to apply, but a passenger has no means to determine the actual times at which the ticket is valid. They might reasonably assume that such a ticket would be called Anytime if that was when it was valid and avoid using it at a time of day they considered could be peak (generally before 09:00 or 09:30 Monday to Friday according to NRE).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It strikes me that Off-Peak fares with no restriction code (ScotRail and, as you say, others) are problematic.

Is that not why the Anytime Short Return (SHR) was added to the mix? This is an Anytime Return but with the outward valid for only one day rather than 5, which reduces the chance of using it as a de-facto season ticket until scanned. It doesn't have break of journey restrictions, though.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

Is that not why the Anytime Short Return (SHR) was added to the mix? This is an Anytime Return but with the outward valid for only one day rather than 5, which reduces the chance of using it as a de-facto season ticket until scanned. It doesn't have break of journey restrictions, though.

Anytime Short Return would be a better fit in this scenario and easier for passengers to understand.

I suppose the inability to prohibit break of journey might be a factor in TOCs not choosing to use it. I believe you're right that it was introduced to prevent the use of an SOR as a Monday to Friday season ticket, but I was never sure whether 'Short' referred to its outward period of validity or the distance of journeys it was applied to.

Its application seemed to coincide with the circa 50 miles demarcation that BR applied to day return and period return fares, i.e. it was available for short journeys up to around 50 miles. Perhaps that also means that it's not a Regulated Fare if there's a corresponding SDR or SOR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anytime Short Return would be a better fit in this scenario and easier for passengers to understand. I suppose the inability to prohibit break of journey might be a factor in TOCs not choosing to use it. I believe you're right that it was introduced to prevent the use of an SOR as a Monday to Friday season ticket, but I was never sure whether 'Short' referred to its outward period of validity or the distance of journeys it was applied to. Its application seemed to coincide with the circa 50 miles demarkation that BR applied to day return and period return fares, i.e. it was available for short journeys up to around 50 miles. Perhaps that also means that it's not a Regulated Fare if there's a corresponding SDR or SOR.

It was indeed intended for shorter distances where misuse as a de-facto 5 day season was a concern (I think it was originally called the "Anytime Short Distance Return" and was pioneered by Northern) but it is now used for some longer journeys, notably by TransPennine Express.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It was indeed intended for shorter distances where misuse as a de-facto 5 day season was a concern (I think it was originally called the "Anytime Short Distance Return" and was pioneered by Northern) but it is now used for some longer journeys, notably by TransPennine Express.

Oi it was an EastCoast/VTEC introduction for Doncaster to Leeds and Doncaster to York flows. Distance wasn't part of the name at any point as far as I know.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Press release from the time of introduction of SHR Anytime Short Returns

- “This ticket type is initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015. It's (sic) addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.”

Introduced on the premise of giving passengers increased flexibility, then abused by ToCs to do the exact opposite. Northern, I’m looking you, changing many of its SOR Anytime Returns to SHR Anytime Short Returns.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

Press release from the time of introduction of SHR Anytime Short Returns - “This ticket type is initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015. It's (sic) addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.”

Introduced on the premise of giving passengers increased flexibility, then abused by ToCs to do the exact opposite. Northern, I’m looking you, changing many of its SOR Anytime Returns to SHR Anytime Short Returns.

I'm glad you've posted that, I've been trying all day to remember when they first appeared. Northern presumably found that was the easiest way to prevent enterprising commuters from making an SOR dated Monday last the whole week.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm glad you've posted that, I've been trying all day to remember when they first appeared. Northern presumably found that was the easiest way to prevent enterprising commuters from making an SOR dated Monday last the whole week.

Errr VTEC not Northern

 

[lyndhurst25]

I'm glad you've posted that, I've been trying all day to remember when they first appeared. Northern presumably found that was the easiest way to prevent enterprising commuters from making an SOR dated Monday last the whole week.

Yes, far easier than making the effort to check and mark/stamp passengers’ tickets, and no thought for anyone who wants to do an overnight BoJ on the outward leg of “short” journeys like Holyhead to Berwick upon Tweed (TPE this time, not Northern).

 

[Fawkes Cat]

no thought for anyone who wants to do an overnight BoJ on the outward leg of “short” journeys like Holyhead to Berwick upon Tweed

There will be people on this forum who will want to break overnight between Holyhead and Berwick-u-T - but outside of us, how many normies will actually be suffering from this loss of flexibility?

I'd take a shot that the number would be quite close to (or actually on) nil. The thing is, we now live in a country where a lot of the trains are quite fast, and a lot of trains are quite frequent.

So there are very few journeys where you'd need to break overnight: you might want to put in such a break so that on your way from Holyhead to see Auntie Doris in Berwick you can also pop in on cousin Flossie in Huddersfield and sleep on her sofa, but if the purpose of the trip is to get to Berwick then you can do it in the day starting from Holyhead.

 

[redreni]

There will be people on this forum who will want to break overnight between Holyhead and Berwick-u-T - but outside of us, how many normies will actually be suffering from this loss of flexibility?

I'd take a shot that the number would be quite close to (or actually on) nil. The thing is, we now live in a country where a lot of the trains are quite fast, and a lot of trains are quite frequent. So there are very few journeys where you'd need to break overnight: you might want to put in such a break so that on your way from Holyhead to see Auntie Doris in Berwick you can also pop in on cousin Flossie in Huddersfield and sleep on her sofa, but if the purpose of the trip is to get to Berwick then you can do it in the day starting from Holyhead.

Loads of people want to do complex journeys with overnight stops, e.g. to take advantage of the fact they'll be quite near an old friends' house and call in on them.

Normies just wouldn't try to do that by train, or if they did they'd buy a series of Advance singles and then be slaves to their booked itinerary, because the railway makes the kind of flexible travel that used to be commonplace incredibly difficult and/or expensive. People often resort to signing up here and ask the experts what tickets to buy to enable their desired journey!

I don't think it's a safe assumption that because hardly anyone does X when you make X awkward and difficult and threaten to prosecute people if they make a mistake while doing X, hardly anyone would like to do X.

 

[Bank Foot AM]

Errr VTEC not Northern

Well, in NFM20, immediately prior to the trial introduction of the SHR, there was no SOR between Doncaster and Leeds or Doncaster and York, only FOR, SDR and SVR. The SHR appears from NFM21 and it's in addition to the existing fares, so it would have provided the increased flexibility that was apparently intended. On those flows at least, there wasn't the opportunity to misuse an SOR (a Doncaster to Thirsk SOR would have worked for York, I suppose).

However, when Northern introduced the SHR between Preston and Manchester from NFM25, it replaced the existing SOR, thus reducing flexibilty.