Restoring passenger services to Minehead?

[Mark J]

Moderator note - split from:

Class 165 to Minehead? Seen at Oxford

Anyone know what this is about? Seen at Oxford earlier today. A Class 165 with “Minehead” shown on the indicator board.

www.railforums.co.uk

There needs to be some kind of agreement with the West Somerset Railway, so that some kind of passenger services can be restored to Minehead. It would also help WSR finances with money from GWR and NR through using their infrastructure.

It is ridiculous that Minehead, a sizable town with a major holiday camp, lost its railway to begin with.

 

[brad465]

There needs to be some kind of agreement with the West Somerset Railway, so that some kind of passenger services can be restored to Minehead. It would also help WSR finances with money from GWR and NR through using their infrastructure.

It is ridiculous that Minehead, a sizable town with a major holiday camp, lost its railway to begin with.

It's a long slow route all the way there, I doubt it would have much appeal outside of summer. The link to Bishops Lydeard is something the council have tried (and so far failed) to get approval for, which would be smaller but would be effective if a P&R was put in there and it serves new developments in Bishops Lydeard and Norton Fitzwarren.

The actual shuttle that ran a fortnight ago was certainly good and despite being no faster than 25mph, beat the bus time comfortably. For a regular service though some infrastructure improvements would be needed, including allowing WSR access from the mainline (rather than only the down loop), new signalling and a new platform for GWR services that is separate from the WSR station.

 

[DelW]

There needs to be some kind of agreement with the West Somerset Railway, so that some kind of passenger services can be restored to Minehead. It would also help WSR finances with money from GWR and NR through using their infrastructure.

It is ridiculous that Minehead, a sizable town with a major holiday camp, lost its railway to begin with.

While I'd love that to happen, I don't think there's enough demand to warrant the expenditure which would be necessary to sort out legal and staffing issues, and to raise the line speed above 25mph.

The bus route between Taunton and Minehead is First Bus no 28. Until this year (I think?) there was an express X28 variant which ran directly along the main road between the two, without the loop to Williton and Watchet. Not only has that now been withdrawn, but the "ordinary" 28 frequency has been reduced from half-hourly to every 40 minutes. These are only single deckers, so total capacity is maybe 50 or 60 seats each way per hour.

While that does lead to overcrowding of some services on Butlin's changeover days (Mon & Fri), it seems to be adequate on other days of the week. A train service might attract additional custom that the bus doesn't, but it still probably wouldn't justify much frequency of trains.

This was the state of the 10:30 Minehead to Taunton bus attempting to load more passengers at Watchet on a Friday in June - it was full from its origin at Butlin's. But that is probably peak demand of the year, affecting a couple of services each way per week.

(Image on board full & standing bus)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This was the state of the 10:30 Minehead to Taunton bus attempting to load more passengers at Watchet on a Friday in June - it was full from its origin at Butlin's. But that is probably peak demand of the year, affecting a couple of services each way per week.

(Image on board full & standing bus)

I haven't followed the full discussion, and like everyone here I would love to see a restored rail service, but if the problem is with 'a couple of [bus] services each way per week' - and presumably only in the holiday season, then it seems to me that the much cheaper solution is for someone to lay on more buses at those times.

I can see that there might be argument over who should pay for this - the bus company running more commercial journeys? Butlins as it's their holiday makers? The council? But that doesn't seem to be insoluble, and would surely be a better use of money than restoring routine through running between Minehead/WSR and Taunton/NR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I haven't followed the full discussion, and like everyone here I would love to see a restored rail service, but if the problem is with 'a couple of [bus] services each way per week' - and presumably only in the holiday season, then it seems to me that the much cheaper solution is for someone to lay on more buses at those times.

If it's almost all Butlins, what would make even more sense would be Butlins laying on dedicated coach services (coaches would be better for all the luggage) which you would book alongside your holiday and which would take you direct from station to the actual Butlins site right in front of the reception. That would leave the service bus capacity free for other users. The downside for the users would be that they wouldn't come under the £3 scheme, but that isn't going to last forever anyway.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are there any successful examples of daily through running onto a heritage line?

Didn‘t the Swanage Railway try for a few years but it never got off the ground? As I see it once you get into running ‘normal‘ service patterns people will want to pay ‘normal’ fares. So that would completely undercut the heritage line, but then you’d still want to have to provide a proportion of that low fare to the heritage operation for access? I suggest the financials wouldn’t ever work.

 

[stuu]

As a local the bus can be very busy at other times of the day too, especially in the summer obviously - it runs half hourly on Saturdays. There has been a direct Butlins bus previously, and I'm sure there have been through trains from Bristol or somewhere in the past - I assume that neither of those covered the costs or were considered worthwhile.

Minehead is a pain to get to - the road is terrible so even car journeys take 45minutes-1 hour for about 25 miles, and the bus is even worse as it diverts a few times to serve other settlements. A train service which only stopped at Watchet, Williton and Bishops Lydeard would be broadly competitive with a car journey even at 25mph, although the location of Taunton station relative to the town doesn't help

 

[MartinC]

Are there any successful examples of daily through running onto a heritage line?

Didn‘t the Swanage Railway try for a few years but it never got off the ground? As I see it once you get into running ‘normal‘ service patterns people will want to pay ‘normal’ fares. So that would completely undercut the heritage line, but then you’d still want to have to provide a proportion of that low fare to the heritage operation for access? I suggest the financials wouldn’t ever work.

Swanage failed because the cost of a diesel journey one stop from Wareham was more than the cost of the journey from Southampton to Wareham

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there any successful examples of daily through running onto a heritage line?

Didn‘t the Swanage Railway try for a few years but it never got off the ground? As I see it once you get into running ‘normal‘ service patterns people will want to pay ‘normal’ fares. So that would completely undercut the heritage line, but then you’d still want to have to provide a proportion of that low fare to the heritage operation for access? I suggest the financials wouldn’t ever work.

For that one it didn't make money and there was no desire from anyone to subsidise the operation so it couldn't continue. The issue at the moment is the need to cut costs, not increase them by adding to the network in a way that requires more subsidy (though admittedly there have been the odd additions likely to require subsidy e.g. Northumberland).

Aside from that and Butlins doing their own thing, properly integrating the bus service would be a good start, e.g. having Minehead as a destination in the journey planners with through fares set and protection against missing connections on Advances. That works quite well with the long, thin nature of Cornwall and Devon - it (and most of GWR to be honest) is a classic "mainline and branches" setup rather than something more complex. That would make a lot of sense for Okehampton-Bude nearby too. While stuff like bustimes.org makes a difference for those in the know planning multimodal trips (though can be wrong sometimes when it comes to small bus companies, as I found last Sunday) the majority of people wanting to see if going somewhere by train is viable or not will just stick it in Trainline and if it doesn't appear just consider other options.

Edit: it appears it already is (as MINEHEAD BUTLINS BUS), with a full set of through fares from e.g. Paddington. Not only that but it appears the bus is in effect free, as the fares just seem to be the same as Taunton.

 

[stuu]

The 28 bus is as well integrated as any I'm aware of in the UK, as well as through tickets it is included on the departure boards at Taunton station and stops where the Chard branch bay used to be

 

[Djgr]

I wouldn't base any transport planning on the longevity of a holiday camp.

 

[HSTEd]

Edit: it appears it already is (as MINEHEAD BUTLINS BUS), with a full set of through fares from e.g. Paddington. Not only that but it appears the bus is in effect free, as the fares just seem to be the same as Taunton.

As an aside, I am probably unreasonably annoyed that they didn't give it the obvious code of MBB, instead of the 'XBV' code.
I get why they did that, since its not actually a railway station - but it hardly presents a seamless experience.

 

[brad465]

For the WSR to become a full NR route, it probably needs the WSR operation to fail and then Network Rail take it over, akin to how the Dartmoor Line was restored. In this situation though almost every intermediate station would close; the only survivors would likely be Bishops Lydeard, Minehead, and one of Wiliton or Washford, to retain a passing point and serve the collection of villages and holiday parks in that area.

Minehead as a town is reasonably large, being over 10,000 people, so would have more potential than just the existence of Butlins, but it certainly would be a loss-maker without Minehead being a railhead for other areas, and/or a new town being built somewhere along the route.

 

[DelW]

For the WSR to become a full NR route, it probably needs the WSR operation to fail and then Network Rail take it over, akin to how the Dartmoor Line was restored. In this situation though almost every intermediate station would close; the only survivors would likely be Bishops Lydeard, Minehead, and one of Wiliton or Washford, to retain a passing point and serve the collection of villages and holiday parks in that area.

I think that would be a bit pessimistic - unless there was a need to shave every half-minute out to make the timetable work, Watchet is busy enough to warrant a call, along with Williton and possibly Washford. Dunster village and Castle is a big tourist draw, but unfortunately the station is too inconveniently sited to be likely to produce much traffic.

Minehead as a town is reasonably large, being over 10,000 people, so would have more potential than just the existence of Butlins, but it certainly would be a loss-maker without Minehead being a railhead for other areas, and/or a new town being built somewhere along the route.

I agree - even if the WSR were to fail (it has teetered occasionally in the past, but seems fairly secure again now), the likelihood of the line ever reopening under NR/GBR seems very low.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I don't understand why railways always need to be "profitable". The A358 and A39 are hopelessly uneconomic, there being no toll-booths between Taunton and Minehead. The cost of maintenance, drainage, policing and accidents on the road must be quite substantial but there is no direct income-source. Yet nobody ever suggests closing roads!

 

[HSTEd]

I don't understand why railways always need to be "profitable". The A358 and A39 are hopelessly uneconomic, there being no toll-booths between Taunton and Minehead. The cost of maintenance, drainage, policing and accidents on the road must be quite substantial but there is no direct income-source. Yet nobody ever suggests closing roads!

Those roads still generate revenue by increasing fuel consumption of heavily taxed fuel.

 

[35B]

The questions are whether a passenger service can coexist with a heritage railway, and what it would cost to make the changes to infrastructure at Taunton to enable a regular service towards Minehead.

Today, the heritage service is MUCH slower than the A358, and is speed limited to 25mph. Increasing those speed limits to pre-closure speeds would require significant changes to the heritage operation, imposing both costs and maintenance requirements - and that assumes that the new service could use a railway optimised for heritage speeds.

At Norton Fitzwarren, you then have a simplified connection optimised for what is basically a siding connection. Down trains have to cross all lines, and would need to be pathed; the signalling is already limited.

If we look at the economic value to the area, it's far from clear that such an upgrade would increase the value to the places it serves. The heritage operation brings in tourists, who then spend money; at least some of the hotel business is influenced by it. A "proper" service would tend to act as a route out at least as much as in, and be much less attractive to tourists.

 

[brad465]

I think that would be a bit pessimistic - unless there was a need to shave every half-minute out to make the timetable work, Watchet is busy enough to warrant a call, along with Williton and possibly Washford. Dunster village and Castle is a big tourist draw, but unfortunately the station is too inconveniently sited to be likely to produce much traffic.

Dunster might be viable as a request stop, as it's only one platform and can get away with minimal facilities. Similar with Blue Anchor and/or Watchet, but Crowcombe Heathfield, Stogumber and Doniford are in the middle of nowhere.

The questions are whether a passenger service can coexist with a heritage railway, and what it would cost to make the changes to infrastructure at Taunton to enable a regular service towards Minehead.

Today, the heritage service is MUCH slower than the A358, and is speed limited to 25mph. Increasing those speed limits to pre-closure speeds would require significant changes to the heritage operation, imposing both costs and maintenance requirements - and that assumes that the new service could use a railway optimised for heritage speeds.

At Norton Fitzwarren, you then have a simplified connection optimised for what is basically a siding connection. Down trains have to cross all lines, and would need to be pathed; the signalling is already limited.

If we look at the economic value to the area, it's far from clear that such an upgrade would increase the value to the places it serves. The heritage operation brings in tourists, who then spend money; at least some of the hotel business is influenced by it. A "proper" service would tend to act as a route out at least as much as in, and be much less attractive to tourists.

They definitely won't be able to coexist along the full length; the only bit where coexistence would work is the mainline to Bishops Lydeard link, however a new bay platform would likely be needed to keep GWR services and the heritage operation separate.

Does anyone know how much the WSR depends on railtours visiting the line? There are a number of them in a given year that visit from afar, and Bishops Lydeard also hosts mainline steam locos that operate railtours, particularly to Kingswear.

 

[Mark J]

Surely GWR could run Monday to Friday services over the line, with the WSR running on weekends and bank holidays.

When WSR stop their heritage operations on a Sat/Sun, then GWR takes over to provide later services.

Or upgrade the infrastructure so that GWR and a heritage service can run at the same time.

If the GWR service was very limited stop, it wouldn't impact on the leisure nature of the all stops heritage WSR railway.

Either way, the WSR would benefit financially through track access charges and likely NR funded infrastructure improvements, as it could not be possibly expected that a heritage railway could afford to do large scale improvements.

Can anyone advise if the WSR was a single or double track route, in the days when it did provide regular passenger services.

Also, can the WSR track actually tolerate higher speeds than the 25mph heritage operation. I know that maximum speed limit is mandatory for all heritage railways (bar the Great Central) by the ORR - regardless if the track can tolerate higher speeds.

 

[The Planner]

Surely GWR could run Monday to Friday services over the line, with the WSR running on weekends and bank holidays.

When WSR stop their heritage operations on a Sat/Sun, then GWR takes over to provide later services.

Or upgrade the infrastructure so that GWR and a heritage service can run at the same time.

If the GWR service was very limited stop, it wouldn't impact on the leisure nature of the all stops heritage WSR railway.

Either way, the WSR would benefit financially through track access charges and likely NR funded infrastructure improvements, as it could not be possibly expected that a heritage railway could afford to do large scale improvements.

Can anyone advise if the WSR was a single or double track route, in the days when it did provide regular passenger services.

Also, can the WSR track actually tolerate higher speeds than the 25mph heritage operation. I know that maximum speed limit is mandatory for all heritage railways (bar the Great Central) by the ORR - regardless if the track can tolerate higher speeds.

Why are NR going to fund it?

 

[Djgr]

Surely GWR could run Monday to Friday services over the line, with the WSR running on weekends and bank holidays.

When WSR stop their heritage operations on a Sat/Sun, then GWR takes over to provide later services.

Or upgrade the infrastructure so that GWR and a heritage service can run at the same time.

If the GWR service was very limited stop, it wouldn't impact on the leisure nature of the all stops heritage WSR railway.

Either way, the WSR would benefit financially through track access charges and likely NR funded infrastructure improvements, as it could not be possibly expected that a heritage railway could afford to do large scale improvements.

Can anyone advise if the WSR was a single or double track route, in the days when it did provide regular passenger services.

Also, can the WSR track actually tolerate higher speeds than the 25mph heritage operation. I know that maximum speed limit is mandatory for all heritage railways (bar the Great Central) by the ORR - regardless if the track can tolerate higher speeds.

There aren't many examples of heritage railways sharing with National Rail. North Yorkshire Moors is the only one that comes to mind.

 

[Falcon1200]

Surely GWR could run Monday to Friday services over the line, with the WSR running on weekends and bank holidays.

Who is going to signal the GWR trains, and who will pay for the upgrades needed to achieve a better line speed than 25mph?

There aren't many examples of heritage railways sharing with National Rail. North Yorkshire Moors is the only one that comes to mind.

And in that case it is NYMR trains running over National Rail track, not vice versa!

 

[Llanigraham]

Perhaps someone could suggest that Butlins agreed to sponser a train run by the WSR on their change over days/times

 

[zwk500]

Surely GWR could run Monday to Friday services over the line, with the WSR running on weekends and bank holidays.

When WSR stop their heritage operations on a Sat/Sun, then GWR takes over to provide later services.

So are GWR contractually an open-access operator on the WSR? Are the WSR providing suitably trained staff to signal the trains? Where does responsibility sit when GWR fail to present at the boundary on time?

If the GWR service was very limited stop, it wouldn't impact on the leisure nature of the all stops heritage WSR railway.

It would if a Turbo was stuck waiting for the heritage unit to doddle along out of the way.

Or upgrade the infrastructure so that GWR and a heritage service can run at the same time.

Either way, the WSR would benefit financially through track access charges and likely NR funded infrastructure improvements, as it could not be possibly expected that a heritage railway could afford to do large scale improvements.

Also, can the WSR track actually tolerate higher speeds than the 25mph heritage operation. I know that maximum speed limit is mandatory for all heritage railways (bar the Great Central) by the ORR - regardless if the track can tolerate higher speeds.

To upgrade the line to a point where a mainline service would be viable triggers the Railway Safety Regulations 1999, which the WSR is currently exempt from as it does not exceed 25mph. If it exceeded 25mph, it would be required (at minimum) to fit and and have operable TPWS on all stop signals.
Regarding funding, the WSR can't do it by themselves, NR won't be able to spend anything worthwhile on a heritage line, so it's going to have to come from an external funder. Who will presumably want a return on their investment. The WSR will be paying back a loan (with interest), while having also massively increased their cost base.
If this was fully charged to GWR as track access fees, the line would be completely uneconomic as a commercial venture, so GWR and the WSR would need to ask the DfT to subsidise the entire operation. The DfT would then effectively be directly funding a heritage line. HMT would certainly not be signing any cheques for DfT to dish out without having seen a clear appraisal it would result in a net gain to HMT (the wider economic impacts, etc...).

We're quite likely talking 10s of millions to upgrade the line, for reference.

Can anyone advise if the WSR was a single or double track route, in the days when it did provide regular passenger services.

According to Wiki, it was double track from Norton Fitzwarren to Bishops Lydeard and from Dunster to Minehead only. The middle section was only ever single track with passing loops. Available photos on google and wiki corroborate this with some stations only being wide enough for 1 track and every indication suggesting it has always been son.

 

[SynthD]

It's a long slow route all the way there, I doubt it would have much appeal outside of summer. The link to Bishops Lydeard is something the council have tried (and so far failed) to get approval for, which would be smaller but would be effective if a P&R was put in there and it serves new developments in Bishops Lydeard and Norton Fitzwarren.

A previous ‘major’ housing development in the area was on the site of a closed hospital. The newest proposal is on greenfield near Bishops Lydeard station. If there were more like this, if there were a car park then a town plus West Somerset parkway station could pay its way.

Vision for up to 130 family homes in Bishops Lydeard unveiled

A vision for up to 130 family homes in Bishops Lydeard has been unveiled by a developer.

www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk

 

[3141]

According to Wiki, it was double track from Norton Fitzwarren to Bishops Lydeard and from Dunster to Minehead only. The middle section was only ever single track with passing loops. Available photos on google and wiki corroborate this with some stations only being wide enough for 1 track and every indication suggesting it has always been son.

We're quite likely talking 10s of millions to upgrade the line, for reference.

According to Wiki, it was double track from Norton Fitzwarren to Bishops Lydeard and from Dunster to Minehead only. The middle section was only ever single track with passing loops. Available photos on google and wiki corroborate this with some stations only being wide enough for 1 track and every indication suggesting it has always been son.

Quite possibly hundreds of millions. NR or GBR would start by expecting the line to be upgraded almost as if it were a new line. In places it has a winding course with many embankments and cuttings, and present-day standards would probably require gentler slopes. There are numerous level crossings which would require automation of one kind or another.

I don't know what the service was in 1971 when the line closed, but during September 1962 - June 1963 it was nine trains a day on weekdays and three on Sundays. Not enough to cover costs. There was probably a declining amount of freight as well. One train ran fast from Taunton to Williton and reached Minehead in 49 minutes. Others took from 50 minutes to over an hour. So very little faster than a car journey now.

When the West Somerset Railway was planning a heritage line, it thought about a diesel commuter service to Taunton, but that didn't materialise, presumably because it wouldn't pay its way. At one time the WSR tried to encourage visitors to Butlins to use the line, but getting a bus from Taunton to Bishops Lydeard, changing to a train, and then a bus or taxi from Minehead Station to Butlins, would make a through bus more attractive.

Minehead is now a bigger town than it was fifty years ago, and it does serve a large area, though that is sparsely populated. Many of the inhabitants of that area will own a car. If they are going to Taunton, either for shopping there or to get a train somewhere else, it may well be quicker to drive straight to Taunton than to drive to a WSR station and get a train.

As other posters have said, the easiest way to meet the peak demand from Butlins visitors would be a coach from Taunton direct to the holiday camp.

I don't see the Minehead branch re-opening as part of the national rail system until we return to a time when most can no longer afford a car and have to rely on public transport - probably for a much-reduced amount of travelling than most of us are accustomed to today.

 

[The exile]

Those roads still generate revenue by increasing fuel consumption of heavily taxed fuel.

Ah - but, to use the kind of fallacious argument beloved of certain bean counters evaluating railways, most of that fuel would still be used elsewhere even if those roads were closed! (in fact, given the nature of the alternatives and the inevitable congestion, it is quite possible that closure would result in even more fuel duty revenue).

 

[Falcon1200]

When the West Somerset Railway was planning a heritage line, it thought about a diesel commuter service to Taunton, but that didn't materialise, presumably because it wouldn't pay its way.

IIRC the NUR (National Union of Railwaymen, now the RMT) opposed the proposal because the local bus drivers belonged to that Union. Whether that opposition would actually have prevented trains running, had the plan ever come to fruition, is another thing of course.

 

[FGWHST43009]

So are GWR contractually an open-access operator on the WSR? Are the WSR providing suitably trained staff to signal the trains? Where does responsibility sit when GWR fail to present at the boundary on time?

It would if a Turbo was stuck waiting for the heritage unit to doddle along out of the way.

To upgrade the line to a point where a mainline service would be viable triggers the Railway Safety Regulations 1999, which the WSR is currently exempt from as it does not exceed 25mph. If it exceeded 25mph, it would be required (at minimum) to fit and and have operable TPWS on all stop signals.
Regarding funding, the WSR can't do it by themselves, NR won't be able to spend anything worthwhile on a heritage line, so it's going to have to come from an external funder. Who will presumably want a return on their investment. The WSR will be paying back a loan (with interest), while having also massively increased their cost base.
If this was fully charged to GWR as track access fees, the line would be completely uneconomic as a commercial venture, so GWR and the WSR would need to ask the DfT to subsidise the entire operation. The DfT would then effectively be directly funding a heritage line. HMT would certainly not be signing any cheques for DfT to dish out without having seen a clear appraisal it would result in a net gain to HMT (the wider economic impacts, etc...).

We're quite likely talking 10s of millions to upgrade the line, for reference.

According to Wiki, it was double track from Norton Fitzwarren to Bishops Lydeard and from Dunster to Minehead only. The middle section was only ever single track with passing loops. Available photos on google and wiki corroborate this with some stations only being wide enough for 1 track and every indication suggesting it has always been son.

Wouldn't main line standards require CDL on the mk1s as well as AWS? The stations where GWR don't stop would need a facility to enable their trains to overtake heritage services. I think reconnecting Minehead is a good idea on paper given it's a seaside town, and if it was well connected with other nearby places, and with a dedicated footpath to Butlins, it could work. I would push the boat out even further and extend either the Cardiff-Taunton or Paddington-Taunton terminator services through to Minehead. But how to deal with the heritage railway leaves me scratching my head. You could *try* to build a parallel single track to the current line, but there are issues with stations having platforms on both sides, as well as the tight squeeze through Watchet.

 

[35B]

Wouldn't main line standards require CDL on the mk1s as well as AWS? The stations where GWR don't stop would need a facility to enable their trains to overtake heritage services. I think reconnecting Minehead is a good idea on paper given it's a seaside town, and if it was well connected with other nearby places, and with a dedicated footpath to Butlins, it could work. I would push the boat out even further and extend either the Cardiff-Taunton or Paddington-Taunton terminator services through to Minehead. But how to deal with the heritage railway leaves me scratching my head. You could *try* to build a parallel single track to the current line, but there are issues with stations having platforms on both sides, as well as the tight squeeze through Watchet.

The Minehead branch was always single track, though with some extended loops.