Restarting HS2a

[Peter Sarf]

If you want to deliver phase 2a (and any future phases) for a reasonable amount of money you do also have to make sure the project benefits those affected by the construction.

That happened when the railways were built in the 19th century and it also happened when the motorways were built. It’s an important part of making sure the project gets delivered.

My bold.
Achieved, as I said, by benefiting the whole economy.
Bigger picture.

Otherwise we are not going to get anything done.

We are not talking about 19th century rail lines linking hamlets.

 

[Noddy]

If you want to deliver phase 2a (and any future phases) for a reasonable amount of money you do also have to make sure the project benefits those affected by the construction.

The greater capacity means more trains can be run to more places across the new AND existing lines. Passengers benefit. Freight benefit. The economy benefits. Everyone benefits. This is the justification made in France or Japan or anywhere else, and the folk in those countries seem to get that.

 

[MatthewHutton]

The greater capacity means more trains can be run to more places across the new AND existing lines. Passengers benefit. Freight benefit. The economy benefits. Everyone benefits. This is the justification made in France or Japan or anywhere else, and the folk in those countries seem to get that.

There’s a trust element at stake here too.

How can anyone believe that there will be more classic services for their local station on the west coast mainline when intermediate stops outside the big cities are still being fought this hard even on sections that haven’t started construction yet?

 

[FMerrymon]

It is becoming more and more obvious, that a line (but not one specified for 400km/h) is urgently needed. The Government really needs the HS2 reset report before it can say yes, and needs it to say got and understanding now, and need some extensions to utilise it properly but built to 300-320km/h standards not the excessively expensive 400km/h standard. A 30 mile HS2a line at 300km/h takes 10 minutes, at 400km/h would take 7.5 minutes. But assuming got to slow down at northern end of it, only going to save 1-1.5 minutes at 400km/h because won't be at that high a speed for a lot of it.

The 400kph spec is alignment, not design speed. Comparable European spec is 350kph+ alignments.

Reducing speed isnt going to save much at all. Not zero, but a relatively small amount. The alignment here is in any case set. If a new line is being built, it will almost certainly follow the same alignment. Moving it will cost money, upset more people, mean chaging land holsings already purchased.

Problem is that due to media simplifications, the public believe the speed is the main factor.

My bold.
Achieved, as I said, by benefiting the whole economy.
Bigger picture.

Otherwise we are not going to get anything done.

We are not talking about 19th century rail lines linking hamlets.

Absolutely this.

The greater capacity means more trains can be run to more places across the new AND existing lines. Passengers benefit. Freight benefit. The economy benefits. Everyone benefits. This is the justification made in France or Japan or anywhere else, and the folk in those countries seem to get that

absolutely this as well

 

[JamesT]

There’s a trust element at stake here too.

How can anyone believe that there will be more classic services for their local station on the west coast mainline when intermediate stops outside the big cities are still being fought this hard even on sections that haven’t started construction yet?

One of the major causes of cost ballooning is changes of scope. Construction may not have started, but the act authorising construction along the agreed route for Phase 2a was passed 5 years ago. Relitigating design decisions over and over will only add to the bill.

Putting more services on the legacy WCML is going to be an awful lot easier without the current express trains that whip past in the way. Which is the entire point of HS2.

 

[The Planner]

Shugborough tunnel says hello.

If you are going to four track Colwich to Stafford then you might as well call it a new line and avoid any difficult bits by choosing a slightly different route plus go past Stafford and Colwich in the process. It was all the faff for improvements to other parts of the West Coast Main Line back in the past that made the alternative, HS2, inevitable in most planners eyes.

And Queensville curve in Stafford.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How can anyone believe that there will be more classic services for their local station on the west coast mainline when intermediate stops outside the big cities are still being fought this hard even on sections that haven’t started construction yet?

To be fair, Phase 2A does run a lot closer to the WCML than Phase 1 did, so you're more likely to see better local services closer to where they're building the line, which should assuage opposition. For London-Birmingham, the additional slower services that HS2 frees up will be on the Southern WCML which is a fair way away from where HS2 is actually being built in the Chilterns - so you can kinda see why local residents would feel they get little benefit.

 

[FMerrymon]

To be fair, Phase 2A does run a lot closer to the WCML than Phase 1 did, so you're more likely to see better local services closer to where they're building the line, which should assuage opposition. For London-Birmingham, the additional slower services that HS2 frees up will be on the Southern WCML which is a fair way away from where HS2 is actually being built in the Chilterns - so you can kinda see why local residents would feel they get little benefit.

Chiltern benefits from HS2 too, but it requires some additional interventions

 

[MatthewHutton]

Reducing speed isnt going to save much at all. Not zero, but a relatively small amount. The alignment here is in any case set. If a new line is being built, it will almost certainly follow the same alignment. Moving it will cost money, upset more people, mean chaging land holsings already purchased.

Reducing the speed also means smaller cuttings, embankments, bridges, tunnels and noise barriers. That adds up too.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Chiltern benefits from HS2 too, but it requires some additional interventions

Yeah, I can imagine the Chiltern mainline potentially benefitting because with HS2 there's less sense in Chiltern trying to compete with the WCML for London-Birmingham passengers, which potentially means more stops added to the Marylebone-Snow Hill trains if they stop seeing those trains as WCML competitors. Hence more frequent services for local stations. But that's a bit of an indirect benefit and relies on Chiltern playing ball. I can't though see that benefitting the London-Aylesbury line in any way.

What additional interventions are you thinking would let Chiltern benefit?

 

[FMerrymon]

Yeah, I can imagine the Chiltern mainline potentially benefitting because with HS2 there's less sense in Chiltern trying to compete with the WCML for London-Birmingham passengers, which potentially means more stops added to the Marylebone-Snow Hill trains if they stop seeing those trains as WCML competitors. Hence more frequent services for local stations. But that's a bit of an indirect benefit and relies on Chiltern playing ball. I can't though see that benefitting the London-Aylesbury line in any way.

What additional interventions are you thinking would let Chiltern benefit?

Theyre building the trackbed and restoring some of the line at higher spec for the ewr aylesbury link. Also providing passive provision at ooc which will help run more services on Chiltern. Between Banbury and Birmingham, the plan from. WMCA is to raise frequencies due to the released capacity at Birmingham, which would take pressure off some Chiltern services.

 

[MatthewHutton]

Theyre building the trackbed and restoring some of the line at higher spec for the ewr aylesbury link. Also providing passive provision at ooc which will help run more services on Chiltern. Between Banbury and Birmingham, the plan from. WMCA is to raise frequencies due to the released capacity at Birmingham, which would take pressure off some Chiltern services.

Chilterns only capacity constraint is High Wycombe to Marylebone. There is tonnes of capacity at Moor street as it stands.

On topic for this thread all of this passive provision stuff means you aren’t giving a proper solution to a rich home county so no one else is going to believe you would do it for them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2026 ==

You mean where most people live?

Urban areas mean anywhere with more than 10,000 people living in them and yes 83% of people live in them - I believe the median citizen lives in a settlement of 100,000. That’s what the Worcester women was all about.

If you’re not providing good service to Derby or Stoke or places of that size then that is something more than half the voters would be excluded from.

 

[Shrop]

Reducing the speed also means smaller cuttings, embankments, bridges, tunnels and noise barriers. That adds up too.

As I suggested earlier, we're obsessed with compromise, and that is our downfall.
Surely there must be others in the UK who can see the merit in deciding on a project and doing whatever it takes to see it through?
Other countries manage to do this, which is why an increasing number have flourishing high speed railways. In the UK all we seem capable of is compromises and excuses for failure.
The enterprise, innovation and perseverance that we pioneered for the whole world 200 years ago seems to have almost completely vanished.
Could anyone please explain why my pessimism about how the UK culture (as a whole) is progressing HS2, might be unreasonable?

 

[FMerrymon]

As I suggested earlier, we're obsessed with compromise, and that is our downfall.
Surely there must be others in the UK who can see the merit in deciding on a project and doing whatever it takes to see it through?
Other countries manage to do this, which is why an increasing number have flourishing high speed railways. In the UK all we seem capable of is compromises and excuses for failure.
The enterprise, innovation and perseverance that we pioneered for the whole world 200 years ago seems to have almost completely vanished.
Could anyone please explain why my pessimism about how the UK culture (as a whole) is progressing HS2, might be unreasonable?

Its a hugely misunderstood project. I would suggest its almost certainly the most misunderstood infrastructure project in history. You can see it in this thread even. For that, I blame the media. Even now, the FT just published an article about wny hs2 was expensive that had multiple large misconceptions on its purpose that were outright misleading. There have been a few commentators and journalists who have been (lets say) "less than reliable" on this subject.

Along with misunderstandings about the context of the costs, the media have seriously dented public opinion against it. To the extent that the current govt acknowlesges there will be issues not building hs2 phase 2a, but will not commit, says its not reviving hs2 and wont say it will be a high speed line if they will build, despite it almost certainly having a 400kph alignment if it went ahead.

This is a government supposedly commited to growth and green policy that wont build a shovel ready project that will grow the economy and is instead green lighting airport expansion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2026 ==

Now we have a narrative driven incorrectly by the bbc and others that it was expensive because it was too fast, and it had a bat tunnel, without seriously looking at the big issues of contruction in this country where even a non electrified 100mph line costs 3 times per mile more than the french build a 350kph alignment for.

 

[NCT]

Ambition - there be dragons.

 

[MatthewHutton]

The enterprise, innovation and perseverance that we pioneered for the whole world 200 years ago seems to have almost completely vanished.

The West Coast mainline between London and Birmingham follows the third choice route because of hostile public opinion.

The great western mainline and the Cherwell valley line both inexplicably avoid the (at the time) county town of Berkshire because of hostile public opinion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2026 ==

This is a government supposedly commited to growth and green policy that wont build a shovel ready project that will grow the economy and is instead green lighting airport expansion.

It probably isn’t actually shovel ready as the plan will have to be adapted to do all of the compromises that phase 1 has had to agree south of Birmingham.

 

[JamesT]

It probably isn’t actually shovel ready as the plan will have to be adapted to do all of the compromises that phase 1 has had to agree south of Birmingham.

The compromises were already decided during the legislative process. As I noted earlier, that has been done for Phase 2a.

 

[MatthewHutton]

The compromises were already decided during the legislative process. As I noted earlier, that has been done for Phase 2a.

As people are complaining about late changes raising costs presumably there have been further changes since the legislation was passed.

 

[Noddy]

As people are complaining about late changes raising costs presumably there have been further changes since the legislation was passed.

There haven’t been any late changes to the design of Phase 1 railway because it would require an act of parliament. What there have been changes to are all the peripheral stuff which goes through the conventional town and country planning act.

HS2 says Wendover setback could cost taxpayers 'tens of millions'

A scheme to control flows of naturally occurring springs on part of the line is blocked by planners.

www.bbc.co.uk

HS2 says setback could cost taxpayers 'millions'​

IMAGE SOURCE, HS2 LTD
Image caption,
HS2 said the construction of the nearby Wendover Green Tunnel could face delays and additional costs
ByCharlie Smith, Local Democracy Reporter Service and Eric Johnson, BBC News, Buckinghamshire

• • Published
    22 April 2025

The company behind the HS2 rail project said taxpayers could face a bill running into "tens of millions of pounds" after a key phase of the scheme was blocked.
Permission for an underground chamber and ditch in Wendover, designed to manage groundwater as part of the high-speed rail line, was refused by Buckinghamshire Council.
Planning officers recommended approval, but the council said the proposed access track would cause harm to the "sensitive and protected Chilterns National Landscape".
HS2 said the decision could cause major delays and additional costs to the nearby construction of the Wendover Green Tunnel.

IMAGE SOURCE, HS2 LTD
Image caption,
The proposed ditch and underground chamber would have managed groundwater on a stretch of the line
The plans, external followed advice from the Environment Agency and were intended to help regulate the flow of naturally occurring springs in the area.
It would have involved upgrading an existing access track to facilitate construction and allow for future maintenance.
The project had already been scaled back in response to residents' fears over proposed construction traffic for the works, including down the narrow Dobbins Lane, according to the Local Democracy Reporting Service.
Councillors also opposed HS2's planned upgrades and extension of a farmer's access track and used the "harm" this would cause as their basis of their refusal.
A spokesperson for HS2 Ltd said it was considering its next steps.
"We are disappointed by the committee's decision given that the council's own officers recommended approval.
"As was made clear during the committee meeting, the cost to the taxpayer of this decision risks running into tens of millions of pounds as a result of knock-on delays to the construction of nearby structures," they added.
While the council acknowledged the need for the chamber itself, the council's Strategic Sites Committee, external concluded that this impact could reasonably be avoided or reduced with alternative plans.
A Buckinghamshire Council spokesperson said: "In the committee's discussions, it was made clear that the principle need of the chamber itself is supported but the reason for refusal was stated as harm created by the proposed access track."

You will note that the scheme followed Environment Agency advice and the council planning officers recommended approval. The councillor’s ignored their professional judgement. If you want to change one element of British planning policy it is this. It should be made illegal. Across the whole country that would save 100s of millions, if not billions, every year.

 

[Krokodil]

If you’re not providing good service to Derby or Stoke or places of that size then that is something more than half the voters would be excluded from.

HS2 (western leg) improves services for more than 16 million people. That's plenty to be getting on with. The eastern leg would cover a further 3-4m, and improve upon the dire timings and capacity provided by XC so as I've said before I'd support that being reinstated too.

If phase 2A goes ahead (keeping this on topic), Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield will see an accelerated service to London (I've not seen figures but it'll be around the 30 minute mark). It will be hourly but the present service has two trains 17 minutes apart followed by a 43 minute gap so this isn't as much of a loss as it sounds.

 

[MatthewHutton]

You will note that the scheme followed Environment Agency advice and the council planning officers recommended approval. The councillor’s ignored their professional judgement. If you want to change one element of British planning policy it is this. It should be made illegal. Across the whole country that would save 100s of millions, if not billions, every year.

This is a great example of why it is important to keep projects at least politically neutral with the public. Because in a neutral environment the voters would bite on the wasting money argument.

But there’s no votes in Buckinghamshire in supporting HS2 so that didn’t happen.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2026 ==

If phase 2A goes ahead (keeping this on topic), Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield will see an accelerated service to London (I've not seen figures but it'll be around the 30 minute mark). It will be hourly but the present service has two trains 17 minutes apart followed by a 43 minute gap so this isn't as much of a loss as it sounds.

Good point! It’s also sometimes a project weakness that the benefits are simply poorly communicated to the public.

 

[Noddy]

This is a great example of why it is important to keep projects at least politically neutral with the public. Because in a neutral environment the voters would bite on the wasting money argument.

But there’s no votes in Buckinghamshire in supporting HS2 so that didn’t happen.

No this a great example of why it costs so much money to build infrastructure projects in this country compared to say France. This is one of the four key factors identified by the Institution of Civil Engineers as why projects are so expensive (point 3 in this case). It should be made illegal in any nationally significant infrastructure project.

 

[MatthewHutton]

No this a great example of why it costs so much money to build infrastructure projects in this country compared to say France. As I noted earlier this was one of four key factors identified by the Institution of Civil Engineers as why projects are so expensive (point 3 in this case).

In France the farmers would just block the motorway with their tractors if they were unhappy.

 

[FMerrymon]

If phase 2A goes ahead (keeping this on topic), Stafford, Stoke and Macclesfield will see an accelerated service to London (I've not seen figures but it'll be around the 30 minute mark). It will be hourly but the present service has two trains 17 minutes apart followed by a 43 minute gap so this isn't as much of a loss as it sounds

As well as an expansion of local and regional services to Manchester and Birmingham, a possible new station south of Stoke. As per one of the options for post phase 2a services.

 

[Shrop]

Its a hugely misunderstood project. I would suggest its almost certainly the most misunderstood infrastructure project in history. You can see it in this thread even. For that, I blame the media. Even now, the FT just published an article about wny hs2 was expensive that had multiple large misconceptions on its purpose that were outright misleading. There have been a few commentators and journalists who have been (lets say) "less than reliable" on this subject.

Along with misunderstandings about the context of the costs, the media have seriously dented public opinion against it. To the extent that the current govt acknowlesges there will be issues not building hs2 phase 2a, but will not commit, says its not reviving hs2 and wont say it will be a high speed line if they will build, despite it almost certainly having a 400kph alignment if it went ahead.

This is a government supposedly commited to growth and green policy that wont build a shovel ready project that will grow the economy and is instead green lighting airport expansion.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2026 ==

Now we have a narrative driven incorrectly by the bbc and others that it was expensive because it was too fast, and it had a bat tunnel, without seriously looking at the big issues of contruction in this country where even a non electrified 100mph line costs 3 times per mile more than the french build a 350kph alignment for.

We are, to our shame, indeed a country largely beholden to the press, and the misinformation it spouts for the sole purpose of grabbing headlines.
What's doubly shameful though, is the way that ministers and shadow ministers for decades now, have pandered to the rubbish that our self interested journalists come up with.
Ministers should lead, that's what we elect them to do, but instead they allow themselves to be led by public opinion, as led in turn by the press.
For this reason we now have the spectre of a Reform Government lurking in the shadows, because for all his faults, at least Farage has the strength (and dare I say it - charisma) that so many others lack.
But there's a problem with him, which every self respecting member of this forum should beware of, and that is his promise to treat rail development even more badly than the Tories did.
But for this promise of his, I'd almost want to see what he might achieve in Government, thanks to the sorry state of the alternatives. As a genuine rail enthusiast though, I'm very wary.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

As well as an expansion of local and regional services to Manchester and Birmingham, a possible new station south of Stoke. As per one of the options for post phase 2a services.

That's not a new station they already exist and are called "Wedgewood" and "Barlaston"

 

[Krokodil]

As well as an expansion of local and regional services to Manchester and Birmingham, a possible new station south of Stoke. As per one of the options for post phase 2a services.

Worth noting that the Trent Valley stops would each see their frequencies doubled.

 

[Peter Sarf]

We are, to our shame, indeed a country largely beholden to the press, and the misinformation it spouts for the sole purpose of grabbing headlines.
What's doubly shameful though, is the way that ministers and shadow ministers for decades now, have pandered to the rubbish that our self interested journalists come up with.
Ministers should lead, that's what we elect them to do, but instead they allow themselves to be led by public opinion, as led in turn by the press.
For this reason we now have the spectre of a Reform Government lurking in the shadows, because for all his faults, at least Farage has the strength (and dare I say it - charisma) that so many others lack.
But there's a problem with him, which every self respecting member of this forum should beware of, and that is his promise to treat rail development even more badly than the Tories did.
But for this promise of his, I'd almost want to see what he might achieve in Government, thanks to the sorry state of the alternatives. As a genuine rail enthusiast though, I'm very wary.

That sums up my fears. Politics has slid down a slope for all parties to the point where people will vote for change, any change.

I wonder if Reform might actually carefully consider what is good for the UK and so look at HS2 phase 2a. Or just stick to their promises.

 

[MatthewHutton]

That sums up my fears. Politics has slid down a slope for all parties to the point where people will vote for change, any change.

I wonder if Reform might actually carefully consider what is good for the UK and so look at HS2 phase 2a. Or just stick to their promises.

It’s more likely Farage will cancel phase 1.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The enterprise, innovation and perseverance that we pioneered for the whole world 200 years ago seems to have almost completely vanished.

Would this be the same 19th century enterprise and innovation that cause the WCML to initially completely by-pass Northampton because of NIMBY objections? Or that resulted in Northampton - when it did finally get a railway - getting two separate stations forcing people changing trains to walk between them because LNWR and the Midland Railway wouldn't talk to each other? (Similar to the reasons why Birmingham ended up with New Street / Curzon Street / Snow Hill and Liverpool with Lime Street / Central / Exchange).

I'd be careful what you wish for when reminiscing about the good old days