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Restarting HS2a

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SynthD

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I'm quite skeptical that it would be easy.
If providing 400m platforms was so cheap it probably would have happened anyway.
Why would they have happened before a 400m train? The few examples we have today, eg Gloucester, might be Victorian.
With Moor st and Curzon Street literally next to each other, would it have been wise to connect their approaches, so HS2 trains could have both continued through Moor St low level to New Street and beyond, as well as connect eastwards onto the conventional lines?
No, the buffers are still hundreds of metres apart, the approaches much further. The bulldozable route through Birmingham closely matches the Birmingham-Leicester route.
 
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The Planner

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Three Manchesters, two Liverpools, one Glasgow, one Chester, one Crewe stopper. Eight passenger paths. The Chester doesn't run hourly at the moment but still needs a path, not half of one.

Isn't the proposed junction a flat one though? That will reduce throughput compared with the plain line that exists at the moment.
Which junction? Handsacre? There is no proposal to do anything with Colwich as it stands.
 

NCT

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Not all that expensive: You could extend P1 at Piccadilly to 400m and with another P0 on the same island, though you would need to convert Glossop and Marple lines to Metrolink to avoid conflicts. HS2 stations are surprisingly cheap compared to open line. Interchange is being built for just £370M, and Curzon St for £570M. (That's cost to build, not including fit out or railway installation)

Really begs the question why Euston couldn't be delivered for a comparable cost.
 

SynthD

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Really begs the question why Euston couldn't be delivered for a comparable cost.
Birmingham Interchange is a six platform through station on greenfield, with full and dedicated access. Euston is a 11, no 6, no 10, is it still 10? platform terminus with limited access, angry neighbours, live rail beside and below, and many other improvements, such as tube and oversite development, lumped in.
 

Zomboid

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Which junction? Handsacre? There is no proposal to do anything with Colwich as it stands.
I think Handsacre will be grade separated, though there might have been talk at one time of descoping that when it was going to see barely any trains. I'd be surprised if it wasn't grade separated with the truncated HS2 that's being built now, since it'll be a lot busier and the lines are paired by direction through there.
 

BrianW

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Why would they have happened before a 400m train? The few examples we have today, eg Gloucester, might be Victorian.

No, the buffers are still hundreds of metres apart, the approaches much further. The bulldozable route through Birmingham closely matches the Birmingham-Leicester route.
IIRC the long platform at Gloucester was created (in the 1970s?) to facilitate HSTs and their reversal there?
 

NCT

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Birmingham Interchange is a six platform through station on greenfield, with full and dedicated access. Euston is a 11, no 6, no 10, is it still 10? platform terminus with limited access, angry neighbours, live rail beside and below, and many other improvements, such as tube and oversite development, lumped in.

I was looking at the Curzon figure.

Originally HS2 was going for a phased approach at Euston - 6 platforms on the virgin land then the remaining (5 or 4) on the existing station footprint.

If we isolate the expanded tube concourse, then the initial 6-platform element should be comparable to Curzon Street if it's just platforms and sheds.

How much did King's Cross tube second entrance cost? Euston should be similar to that.
 

Brubulus

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I was looking at the Curzon figure.

Originally HS2 was going for a phased approach at Euston - 6 platforms on the virgin land then the remaining (5 or 4) on the existing station footprint.

If we isolate the expanded tube concourse, then the initial 6-platform element should be comparable to Curzon Street if it's just platforms and sheds.

How much did King's Cross tube second entrance cost? Euston should be similar to that.
There's the obvious extra cost of property, which is a sunk cost now effectively, and the cost enabling over-sight development. I'd advocate for a simple concrete box with 8 platforms (enabling easier over station development) and closing/demolishing 4 more platforms at Euston so there's only 12 platforms. A 12 platform classic Euston is not an issue, it would be a similar platform utilisation to EMR at St Pancras. 6 platform Euston will destroy long term capacity. 8 platforms is an absolute minimum and having some space between HS2 and classic stations is likely to save some money, while a single phase is also cheaper. I've heard over station development at Euston is limited due to protected views, which could be amended to ensure maximum value from the Euston site, given the views of the current government on planning.
 

The Planner

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I think Handsacre will be grade separated, though there might have been talk at one time of descoping that when it was going to see barely any trains. I'd be surprised if it wasn't grade separated with the truncated HS2 that's being built now, since it'll be a lot busier and the lines are paired by direction through there.
Handsacre was always going to be grade seperated. The connections will be on the slow lines.
 

The Planner

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Slow lines? That's a surprise...
Fast line connection was too expensive.

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Because the expectation was that phase2a would be ready around the same time - handsacre would then just be used for 1 train an hour Macclesfield.
No. The original plan had HS2 landing between the fast lines.
 

Zomboid

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Fast line connection was too expensive.

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No. The original plan had HS2 landing between the fast lines.
Seems to me like a great way to ensure you don't get the maximum benefit from the expenditure.
 

The Ham

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That was the plan before HS2 Phase 2 died, but it is now being proposed here that 200m single trains would be a good idea, apparently because overcrowding will get Phase 2A reactivated

That is not at all what I meant.

The bit before talked about how the capacity drop compared to the pre modified trains wasn't as bad as some make out.

I also implied the user of 400m trains, for example I said:

However, where is most likely to be an issue is at Euston, where the use of pairs of units could help with load management.

i.e. running at many 400m trains from Euston.

I also talked about looking at options for longer platforms to allow for the use of 400m trains:

For example, lengthening platforms at Crewe and Carlisle (maybe Preston and Warrington BQ too) to allow longer trains to get through more of the constraints so there could be 1 unit per hour to each of Glasgow and Edinburgh (by splitting a diagram at Carlisle) rather than the current 1tph to Scotland wi
 

HSTEd

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That is not at all what I meant.
I apologise for that.
I also talked about looking at options for longer platforms to allow for the use of 400m trains:
I look at Carlisle and the layout doesn't look very amenable to serious extensions.
It's very complicated, a lot of trackwork.

You might have better luck extending Lockerbie or a similar station with a simple layout.

In any case, i can't help but feel that the sensible option here is just to pay to modify the trains and depot - after all the trains haven't even started construction yet.

EDIT:

We probably shouldn't discount the political dimension to replacing 250m trains with 200m trains, when HS2 has latterly built a business case on capacity. Even if the number of seats is similar, it will still look terrible.
Indeed, I expect the first question will be "why are the trains shorter?"
 
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takno

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I apologise for that.

I look at Carlisle and the layout doesn't look very amenable to serious extensions.
It's very complicated, a lot of trackwork.
On the face of it it doesn't look terrifyingly expensive to widen the viaduct and extend platform 1 to the north, probably adding another platform alongside it. If you were taking it further north and adding another stop, then rather than splitting at Lockerbie you might as well go to Carstairs and save a path up Beattock.
 
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I look at Carlisle and the layout doesn't look very amenable to serious extensions.
It's very complicated, a lot of trackwork.
On the face of it it doesn't look terrifyingly expensive to widen the viaduct and extend platform 1 to the north, probably adding another platform alongside it. If you were taking it further north and adding another stop, then rather than splitting at Lockerbie you might as well go to Carstairs and save a path up Beattock.
The original plan was to divide and join the two double set HS2 trains London Euston to and from Glasgow and Edinburgh each hour at Carlisle.
Did they have a plan for changes to platforms at Carlisle Station to deliver that?
 

takno

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The original plan was to divide and join the two double set HS2 trains London Euston to and from Glasgow and Edinburgh each hour at Carlisle.
Did they have a plan for changes to platforms at Carlisle Station to deliver that?
Searching for hs2 carlisle plans returns a bunch of PDFs. In particular https://assets.hs2.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/N13_CS1420a_In-Your-Area-Carlisle_Feb-22.pdf contains a map showing that they are/were proposing to fill in platform 2, extend 1 and 3, and build a platform 0 to make up for platform 2.
 

Krokodil

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On the face of it it doesn't look terrifyingly expensive to widen the viaduct and extend platform 1 to the north, probably adding another platform alongside it. If you were taking it further north and adding another stop, then rather than splitting at Lockerbie you might as well go to Carstairs and save a path up Beattock.
I think that Carstairs was the original intention before someone pointed out that it was silly stopping the train in what is basically the middle of nowhere when you could split at Carlisle, a station you'd call at anyway.
 

Nottingham59

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contains a map showing that they are/were proposing to fill in platform 2, extend 1 and 3, and build a platform 0 to make up for platform 2.
1747259497035.png

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Also, the same for Preston

1747259579443.png

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This is what HS2 had planned for Crewe. It's really part of 2a, but was not in the 2a budget
1747259847688.png
 
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Bradford1

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I'm astonished at media reports of HS2 London-Birmingham being operational as late as 2039. Phase 1a in 2039 would have been unimaginable not too long ago.
 

JonathanH

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I'm astonished at media reports of HS2 London-Birmingham being operational as late as 2039. Phase 1a in 2039 would have been unimaginable not too long ago.
Isn't it a function of needing to spread what are now immense construction costs over a longer period to actually be able to afford them, rather than a measure of how long it would take to build if it were more affordable?

Whatever it is, it isn't really surprising that there is no money available to commit to any other part of the project.
 

FMerrymon

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Isn't it a function of needing to spread what are now immense construction costs over a longer period to actually be able to afford them, rather than a measure of how long it would take to build if it were more affordable?

Whatever it is, it isn't really surprising that there is no money available to commit to any other part of the project.

With construction inflation as high as it, the set yearly amounts won't be covering all what was expected to cover previously.
 

The Ham

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With construction inflation as high as it, the set yearly amounts won't be covering all what was expected to cover previously.

If construction inflation costs stay high extending the timeframe to build it could actually cost more money.

Also, there's an argument that the sooner you can get people paying to use the services the better.
 

FMerrymon

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If construction inflation costs stay high extending the timeframe to build it could actually cost more money.

Also, there's an argument that the sooner you can get people paying to use the services the better.

Yes, completely agree. Rescheduling in 2023 is already have thought to have added up to 3.1bn to the project and I wonder if it its continuing to add more than that.
 

NCT

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With government borrowing rate still north of 4% we are cash constrained, but equally Treasury is being a parody of itself.
 
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