Restarting HS2 East

[Nottingham59]

My assumption therefore would be that both spurs would be full 300kph line speed hence my point about the subsequent new line being slower. But my assumption could be wrong.

At a set of facing points, the HS2 standard is for 400kph (alignment) and 360kph (maximum running speed) on the line that goes straight on, but only 230kph on the line that diverges.

The only HS2 route rated at 360/400kph in the Birmingham area is the mainline that goes straight through Interchange on the central tracks and on to Manchester. Everything that stops at Interchange, or diverges off to Curzon St, or diverges onto the HS2 spur has to slow to 230kph to take the turn.

You can see the design speeds for the Leeds Spur along the bottom of the HS2 plan and profile map here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7e464ced915d74e62253d3/C223-CSI-CV-DPP-030-000023.pdf

The current HS2 construction site ends in a field at the point labelled Hams Hall Junction.

 

[43074]

There's 2tph 170s to Nottingham, and 2tph XC Voyagers to Sheffield and the North East, plus a bit of freight. The line is only full because the 125mph 221s catch up with the 100mph slowly-accelerating 170s. Changing the 170s to 221 Voyagers would fix that problem.

That's a massive oversimplification and I doubt you could fit another 2tph off HS2 on there.

Just replacing 170s with 221s solves nothing as 221s need longer dwell times, so any time you save running at 125mph is lost by the extra minute (30 seconds at both Burton and Tamworth minimum) lost by the dwell times.

There's also a lot of freight on that route, so it would lose capacity by having more 125mph stock running alongside 60/75mph freight.

 

[Nottingham59]

There's also a lot of freight on that route, so it would lose capacity by having more 125mph stock running alongside 60/75mph freight.

I didn't realise. According to realtimetrains, I think there were 27 freight trains through Burton both ways yesterday in the 14 hours between 0600h and 2000h. That's 1tph on average. There's more paths to Kingsbury Oil Terminal and the International Freight terminal, but those would turn off before conflicting with an HS2 spur.

Anyway, the Curzon St services could replace the XC and EMR services that currently go to New St, so not necessarily adding any new passenger paths whilst increasing passenger capacity.

 

[chris2]

At a set of facing points, the HS2 standard is for 400kph (alignment) and 360kph (maximum running speed) on the line that goes straight on, but only 230kph on the line that diverges.

The only HS2 route rated at 360/400kph in the Birmingham area is the mainline that goes straight through Interchange on the central tracks and on to Manchester. Everything that stops at Interchange, or diverges off to Curzon St, or diverges onto the HS2 spur has to slow to 230kph to take the turn.

You can see the design speeds for the Leeds Spur along the bottom of the HS2 plan and profile map here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7e464ced915d74e62253d3/C223-CSI-CV-DPP-030-000023.pdf

View attachment 187731
The current HS2 construction site ends in a field at the point labelled Hams Hall Junction.

That makes sense, thanks for clarifying. My assumption that both lines were the same speed was indeed wrong, and the spur was always intended for 230km/h running. In that case, I presume there's no negative impact on capacity if a new line following from the end of the Leeds Spur were the same speed.

More broadly, I imagine that introducing a second interaction with the classic network would probably mean having to leave more space in the timetable to cope with imported delays, but on the positive side, electrifying the line (and the trains) would make everything along the route quicker and more reliable.

 

[Technologist]

Based on experiences in continental Europe - and I do know that the UK is different, but still much more similar to the continent to than China - I would predict opposition will rise to 100% if you build everything on viaducts. There is a reason we are tunneling so much - it is not always topography; it reduces public opposition (at a very high cost, of course).

Well there is the argument that for all the HS2 cuttings and tunnels it still doesn't reduce the local opposition. But they do reduce all the opportunities for local administrative malfeasance.

The argument for viaducts is that whilst they might be visible they also actually reduce the impact of the works, building the pillars is localised and quick, the deck is deployed and then the whole project is gone.

The blight of them once in place is relatively minor particularly, land can be used as before, it's very rare that they actually block views, all existing land access remains. Most of the most charismatic features of the railway are viaducts and plenty of people go to visit them or pay to go over them.

 

[NCT]

Any substantial eastern leg really needs the full London - Yorkshire and the North East market to wash its face. Any short section to the vicinity of East Midlands Parkway is only good for Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield which between them would only justify 4tph (2tph London long trains and 2tph Birmingham - Nottingham short trains). Such a line wouldn't be useful for running London - Leeds / Newcastle trains as between Derby and Leeds/York the lines are mainly 2-track mixed use railways with lots of sub 100mph sections - journey times wouldn't beat the ECML and there's no capacity anyway. Really needs the eastern leg built in full (Toton or EMP).

 

[Bald Rick]

Then add a 2tph from Curzon St to Nottingham and 2tph Curzon St to Leeds releasing more capacity in New Street for commuter services into and through Birmingham.

Umm, how does that a) release capacity at New St and b) get to Leeds at all?

 

[Nottingham59]

Umm, how does that a) release capacity at New St and b) get to Leeds at all?

Connecting HS2 to an (electrified) Birmingham-Derby line would enable HS2 to run a London-Interchange-Derby-Sheffield service that would be faster than current MML serivices.

At the same time, Curzon St without HS2 East will have unused capacity. That capacity could serve the main intercity flows from Leeds and the North East and from Nottingham to central Birmingham, which are currently carried by Cross Country into New Street. That would release platforms at New Street, and free up scare tracks in the approaches into New St from the East.

Obviously you'd need to either electrify to past Sheffield (if you wanted to use HS2 stock) or remodel some of the platforms at Curzon St (if you wanted to use existing XC and EMR stock) for these services.

And, yes, you would have to totally remodel the cross country network, but they're going to have to do that anyway when HS2 opens.

 

[David Bullock]

Diverting XC services into Curzon street would make sense if NE-SW flows were sent via Old Oak Common on to GWR. I believe that with HS2 built in full it would be the quickest route. Without any direct link from Yorks and the north east to OOC, and with trains diverted into Curzon Street, anyone trying to get the the south west would have a way worse journey than they do now with a change and walk through Birmingham city centre.

 

[HSTEd]

Diverting XC services into Curzon street would make sense if NE-SW flows were sent via Old Oak Common on to GWR. I believe that with HS2 built in full it would be the quickest route. Without any direct link from Yorks and the north east to OOC, and with trains diverted into Curzon Street, anyone trying to get the the south west would have a way worse journey than they do now with a change and walk through Birmingham city centre.

Well if the Bordesley Curve project actually gets (completely or partially) built, it would allow the South West facing Cross Country services to move to the Moor Street/Curzon Street complex.

 

[Nottingham59]

Diverting XC services into Curzon street would make sense if NE-SW flows were sent via Old Oak Common on to GWR. I believe that with HS2 built in full it would be the quickest route. Without any direct link from Yorks and the north east to OOC, and with trains diverted into Curzon Street, anyone trying to get the the south west would have a way worse journey than they do now with a change and walk through Birmingham city centre.

I can see scope for some through services, say 1tph, from Bristol and the South West to Leeds. That would have to go via New St (unless reversing in Moor St becomes possible). But I would expect that most XC traffic from Reading heading for anywhere north of Birmingham will be faster via Old Oak Common.

 

[Bald Rick]

Connecting HS2 to an (electrified) Birmingham-Derby line would enable HS2 to run a London-Interchange-Derby-Sheffield service that would be faster than current MML serivices.

At the same time, Curzon St without HS2 East will have unused capacity. That capacity could serve the main intercity flows from Leeds and the North East and from Nottingham to central Birmingham, which are currently carried by Cross Country into New Street. That would release platforms at New Street, and free up scare tracks in the approaches into New St from the East.

Obviously you'd need to either electrify to past Sheffield (if you wanted to use HS2 stock) or remodel some of the platforms at Curzon St (if you wanted to use existing XC and EMR stock) for these services.

And, yes, you would have to totally remodel the cross country network, but they're going to have to do that anyway when HS2 opens.

Are you suggesting that the Nottingham / Newcastle services retain their current stopping patterns (or very similar), but just go to Curzon St (and no further on their current routes) rsther than New St?

 

[Brubulus]

I think I am pretty much a Parkway-sceptic as far as HS2 is concerned, and that's not really about the value of Parkway station itself.

Firstly, the route to Derby via Parkway is pretty indirect and I didn't think Derby/Sheffield would be any quicker than joining the existing network around Tamworth, which means a lot of the benefit would be capacity by essentially quad-tracking Birmingham to Derby.

However, if you're building this fantastic high speed line to Parkway then you want to sweat the asset. But if the whole point is to run from Parkway through Trent/Sheet Stores and into Derby or Nottingham, then either there may be a lot of money to be spent on upgrades, or you have to sacrifice local/intra regional connectivity between the 3 main cities (and there is probably significant benefits to be had from improving frequencies between the cities). I'm sure work was done but I never saw anything published that addressed it, I don't think the IRP did.

The original Toton EM Hub at least had some clarity of purpose that was basically about being an ECML bypass to get to Sheffield, Leeds and beyond.



I agree, this could be the silver lining from Midlands Rail Hub East being postponed*, so much better than having 170s trundling round to Moor Street.
Leicester (entirely predictably) misses out again though.

*It is at least plausible that one reason why MRH East has been deferred is because it's been optioneered against HS2 to Tamworth.
Although the even more plausible reason is that HMT won't invest.

The solution would be for Nottingham services to be operated by 110mph units with quick acceleration, or a substantial amount of time could likely be saved with 196s in the interim.

There's no strong reason why services to Nottingham and Leeds shouldn't run via HS2, it enables them to avoid Water Orton and Kingsbury.

There's more than enough terminating trains at New Street that can be linked together to ensure reductions in platform usage, and HS2 makes direct long distance journeys on the Reading routes difficult to justify.

 

[The Planner]

The solution would be for Nottingham services to be operated by 110mph units with quick acceleration, or a substantial amount of time could likely be saved with 196s in the interim.

There's no strong reason why services to Nottingham and Leeds shouldn't run via HS2, it enables them to avoid Water Orton and Kingsbury.

There's more than enough terminating trains at New Street that can be linked together to ensure reductions in platform usage, and HS2 makes direct long distance journeys on the Reading routes difficult to justify.

Im interested to know which ones, and don't suggest Euston to Liverpool.

 

[Brubulus]

Im interested to know which ones, and don't suggest Euston to Liverpool.

Isn't there a plan for Hereford to Shrewsbury through services?
I would also be interested to know how full TfW services are between New Street and International. I know that would be difficult for political/splitting/ETCS reasons.

 

[The Planner]

Isn't there a plan for Hereford to Shrewsbury through services?
I would also be interested to know how full TfW services are between New Street and International. I know that would be difficult for political/splitting/ETCS reasons.

Not that I know of.

The TfW goes there to get it out the way, but they load reasonably.

 

[Nottingham59]

Are you suggesting that the Nottingham / Newcastle services retain their current stopping patterns (or very similar), but just go to Curzon St (and no further on their current routes) rsther than New St?

I don't think so. If a Derby spur gets built, travel on the Sheffield - Birmingham axis will be transformed. The whole timetable will need recasting.

HS2 phase 1 by itself will make a huge difference, releasing platforms and throat capacity at New Street by diverting traffic from Birmingham to London, Reading, Manchester etc. to Curzon St.

With an HS2-Derby spur, there will still be demand for some through trains NE-SW across Birmingham, but a lot of trains from the Derby direction could terminate in Curzon St. Utilizing the spare capacity of Curzon st, together with the new platforms and chords at Moor Street, I reckon that the total rail capacity in central Birmingham will have doubled.

Looking at curent XC routes, I'd say to keep 2tph long-distance on the SW-NE axis through New Street (or reverse in Moor Street), and combine Cardiff and Stansted into a 2tph through service. But terminate Nottinghams in Curzon St and accommodate any growth on the Derby line in Curzon St too. XC routes to Manchester and to Reading will lose long-distance traffic to HS2, and should be integrated into the Birmingham regional network.

Those are my initial thoughts, but note i have done any modelling to validate this intial suggestion.

 

[The Planner]

I don't think so. If a Derby spur gets built, travel on the Sheffield - Birmingham axis will be transformed. The whole timetable will need recasting.

HS2 phase 1 by itself will make a huge difference, releasing platforms and throat capacity at New Street by diverting traffic from Birmingham to London, Reading, Manchester etc. to Curzon St.

With an HS2-Derby spur, there will still be demand for some through trains NE-SW across Birmingham, but a lot of trains from the Derby direction could terminate in Curzon St. Utilizing the spare capacity of Curzon st, together with the new platforms and chords at Moor Street, I reckon that the total rail capacity in central Birmingham will have doubled.

Looking at curent XC routes, I'd say to keep 2tph long-distance on the SW-NE axis through New Street (or reverse in Moor Street), and combine Cardiff and Stansted into a 2tph through service. But terminate Nottinghams in Curzon St and accommodate any growth on the Derby line in Curzon St too. XC routes to Manchester and to Reading will lose long-distance traffic to HS2, and should be integrated into the Birmingham regional network.

Those are my initial thoughts, but note i have done any modelling to validate this intial suggestion.

I don't think its releasing as much at New St as you think. Id still expect 2tph Avanti type services that stop as the slower one does now. I also think the Bournemouth Manchester stays as well.

 

[Shrop]

I don't think its releasing as much at New St as you think. Id still expect 2tph Avanti type services that stop as the slower one does now. I also think the Bournemouth Manchester stays as well.

Just a thought about Bournemouth-Manchester, since you mention it. A lot of XC services are very overcrowded, which suggests that there is latent demand to use them if they were improved (ie provide more and better trains and they will be used). So, since HS2 is going via OOC, why not make use of this for XC trains? In other words, run a few XC trains from Southampton (or perhaps Bournemouth if demand warrants it) to OOC, then along the HS2 route to Birmingham and Manchester, plus another from Southampton (or Portsmouth - which is presently woefully lacking in any through services to anywhere north of Reading) to Sheffield and Leeds?

I've always had doubts about running HS2 via OOC, but since this route is now beyond change then at least let's maximise its value. Reading to OOC is only 20 minutes, and OOC to Birmingham is only 40 minutes or so. Then Reading (plus from further south) to Sheffield and Leeds would also benefit quite a bit from using an HS2 East route,

 

[swt_passenger]

Just a thought about Bournemouth-Manchester, since you mention it. A lot of XC services are very overcrowded, which suggests that there is latent demand to use them if they were improved (ie provide more and better trains and they will be used). So, since HS2 is going via OOC, why not make use of this for XC trains? In other words, run a few XC trains from Southampton (or perhaps Bournemouth if demand warrants it) to OOC, then along the HS2 route to Birmingham and Manchester, plus another from Southampton (or Portsmouth - which is presently woefully lacking in any through services to anywhere north of Reading) to Sheffield and Leeds?

I've always had doubts about running HS2 via OOC, but since this route is now beyond change then at least let's maximise its value. Reading to OOC is only 20 minutes, and OOC to Birmingham is only 40 minutes or so. Then Reading (plus from further south) to Sheffield and Leeds would also benefit quite a bit from using an HS2 East route,

There’s nowhere to provide a track connection at OOC to do the necessary reversal, hasn’t this been mentioned a few times before?

 

[The Planner]

Just a thought about Bournemouth-Manchester, since you mention it. A lot of XC services are very overcrowded, which suggests that there is latent demand to use them if they were improved (ie provide more and better trains and they will be used). So, since HS2 is going via OOC, why not make use of this for XC trains? In other words, run a few XC trains from Southampton (or perhaps Bournemouth if demand warrants it) to OOC, then along the HS2 route to Birmingham and Manchester, plus another from Southampton (or Portsmouth - which is presently woefully lacking in any through services to anywhere north of Reading) to Sheffield and Leeds?

I've always had doubts about running HS2 via OOC, but since this route is now beyond change then at least let's maximise its value. Reading to OOC is only 20 minutes, and OOC to Birmingham is only 40 minutes or so. Then Reading (plus from further south) to Sheffield and Leeds would also benefit quite a bit from using an HS2 East route,

As @swt_passenger notes. There is no connection, and one has never been planned. HS2 is many metres below GWR.

 

[PTR 444]

Once HS2 is up and running, is it likely that more Bournemouth - Birmingham/Manchester passengers will stay on the existing XC services (assuming they will still run), or go to London/OOC and change onto HS2 there?

 

[HSTEd]

Once HS2 is up and running, is it likely that more Bournemouth - Birmingham/Manchester passengers will stay on the existing XC services (assuming they will still run), or go to London/OOC and change onto HS2 there?

I think that is probably quite dependent on what hte quality of the connection between Old Oak Common and Clapham Junction is like - and thus on whether or not the proposed OOC Interchange on the West London line is ever built.

 

[Shrop]

As @swt_passenger notes. There is no connection, and one has never been planned. HS2 is many metres below GWR.

Look at this in the overall scheme of things though. HS2 is many, many £billions with miles upon miles of tunnels etc. If there could be a benefit to XC passengers then perhaps the provision of a link is worth more than just instant dismissal?

 

[chris2]

Once HS2 is up and running, is it likely that more Bournemouth - Birmingham/Manchester passengers will stay on the existing XC services (assuming they will still run), or go to London/OOC and change onto HS2 there?

Soton->Reading on XC is an hour, give or take.
Reading->OOC, 20mins
OOC->Curzon, 40mins

Add in time for 2 changes and you’re not getting much change out of the current journey time to New St. Plus it’d just be a bit silly to get off the direct train. And would probably cost even more ££.

Soton->Clapham roughly an hour.
Clapham->OOC, maybe 20mins.
…it’s basically the same.

I’d have thought the better solution is more carriages and sorting out whatever slows it down into New St…and I expect HS2 helps with that.

(sorry just realised you said Bournemouth, not Southampton).

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think so. If a Derby spur gets built, travel on the Sheffield - Birmingham axis will be transformed. The whole timetable will need recasting.

HS2 phase 1 by itself will make a huge difference, releasing platforms and throat capacity at New Street by diverting traffic from Birmingham to London, Reading, Manchester etc. to Curzon St.

With an HS2-Derby spur, there will still be demand for some through trains NE-SW across Birmingham, but a lot of trains from the Derby direction could terminate in Curzon St. Utilizing the spare capacity of Curzon st, together with the new platforms and chords at Moor Street, I reckon that the total rail capacity in central Birmingham will have doubled.

Looking at curent XC routes, I'd say to keep 2tph long-distance on the SW-NE axis through New Street (or reverse in Moor Street), and combine Cardiff and Stansted into a 2tph through service. But terminate Nottinghams in Curzon St and accommodate any growth on the Derby line in Curzon St too. XC routes to Manchester and to Reading will lose long-distance traffic to HS2, and should be integrated into the Birmingham regional network.

Those are my initial thoughts, but note i have done any modelling to validate this intial suggestion.

There is no capacity at Sheffiled to run any more services from Derby or towards Leeds. So if there are services from Curzon St to Sheffield via an HS2 link, what is giving way?

Similarly, Trent Junction for services to Nottingham.

And Phase 1 wont see Birmingham - Manchester services from Curzon St.

 

[HSTEd]

There is no capacity at Sheffiled to run any more services from Derby or towards Leeds. So if there are services from Curzon St to Sheffield via an HS2 link, what is giving way?

London-Curzon Street-Sheffield could still be competitive with the via MML solution......

And Phase 1 wont see Birmingham - Manchester services from Curzon St.

I think an attempt will likely be made to path it, even the Northern Manchester-Stoke stopper would be competitive with XC to Birmingham if it was extended to Curzon Street./

 

[Bald Rick]

Look at this in the overall scheme of things though. HS2 is many, many £billions with miles upon miles of tunnels etc. If there could be a benefit to XC passengers then perhaps the provision of a link is worth more than just instant dismissal?

You may well have missed previous threads on the subject where this has been discussed ad nauseam, but providing any direct rail link between OOC and the GWML (in any direction) will be hugely expensive (billions) and hugely disruptive to existing rail passengers and local residents too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2025 ==

London-Curzon Street-Sheffield could still be competitive with the via MML solution......

Clearly. Which train(s) into Sheffield from the south are removed to make way for it?

I think an attempt will likely be made to path it, even if the Stoke stopper would be competitive with XC to birmingham if it was extended to Curzon Street./

There might be an attempt to path it (indeed I think there already has been as a thought experiment). There won’t be an attempt to run it.

 

[HSTEd]

Clearly. Which train(s) into Sheffield from the south are removed to make way for it?

The London-Sheffield via MML train?
If the London-Birmingham-Sheffield train can beat it end to end despite the detour, what would be the point of running a train London-Sheffield via Leicester? You'd either break it at Derby or just run a DMU shuttle Derby-Leicester.

 

[Bald Rick]

The London-Sheffield via MML train?
If the London-Birmingham-Sheffield train can beat it end to end despite the detour, what would be the point of running a train London-Sheffield via Leicester? You'd either break it at Derby or just run a DMU shuttle Derby-Leicester.

Leicester / Loughboro’ / East Midlands passengers to Sheffield.