Resolving driver number problems

[philthetube]

Many of the operating companies are having difficulty with driver training.

even prior to covid companies such as Northern were struggling to retain driver numbers due to poaching.

There are a couple of questions which I would interested to hear views on.

Should a driver school be created to do the initial training, charging TOC's for trainees, leaving to TOC to deal with stock and route when the trainee was handed over?

If yes should the driver have to start on local routes and only be able to apply for promotion after a period of time?

Should companies poaching drivers be required to pay a transfer fee to the companies poached from?

 

[skyhigh]

If yes should the driver have to start on local routes and only be able to apply for promotion after a period of time?

With the link system this pretty much already happens. You start off with fewer routes and build up knowledge as you become more senior. At my depot everyone signs the 'local routes' - the shortage of route knowledge means that there isn't enough people who currently sign the additional routes above the core, so I don't see how this suggestion would help.

 

[philthetube]

I was thinking more about firms not both who prefer to poach rather than train, this leaves operators like northern, and to do this would at least allow them to get value from their training.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I was thinking more about firms not both who prefer to poach rather than train, this leaves operators like northern, and to do this would at least allow them to get value from their training.

From somewhere I get the impression that in the bus industry, new drivers are required to pay back (some? all?) of the cost of their training if they leave the company that taught them to drive a bus 'too soon'. If I haven't imagined this, couldn't TOCs do the same without compulsorily centralising training?

 

[Elecman]

Golden Handcuffs on a sliding scale over 5 years say 3 years post qualification would reduce the poaching element could be bought out by the ‘poacher’

 

[Bald Rick]

Should a driver school be created to do the initial training, charging TOC's for trainees, leaving to TOC to deal with stock and route when the trainee was handed over?

Yes, or potentially charging the drivers for their basic training, like many airlines do, similarly doctors, nurses, dentists, architects, accountants, lawyers, etc etc.

 

[Ken H]

Surely better to look at why staff are leaving and fix that.
And look at semi retirement. An ex full time employee doing 1 or 2 shifts a week could help.

 

[philthetube]

Surely better to look at why staff are leaving and fix that.
And look at semi retirement. An ex full time employee doing 1 or 2 shifts a week could help.

staff leaving is not always fixable, if they are leaving the industry then it needs looking at, if they are going to a better paying toc who can pay more because they do not invest in training this is more difficult.

I am sure part time working would help.

 

[Ken H]

staff leaving is not always fixable, if they are leaving the industry then it needs looking at, if they are going to a better paying toc who can pay more because they do not invest in training this is more difficult.

I am sure part time working would help.

I have a couple of friends who drive the odd day for a local bus company. They are retired but their bus driving qualifications are up to date.
Could that work on the railway. (Drivers and other disciplines)

 

[baz962]

I have a couple of friends who drive the odd day for a local bus company. They are retired but their bus driving qualifications are up to date.
Could that work on the railway. (Drivers and other disciplines)

You could only drive on the routes and traction that you sign and not just any route or train. Reasons for moving include a better commute. Most places will have a bus company and you can work local to where you live. There are not nearly as many train depots and so many people train somewhere away from where they live and then eventually get the chance to move nearer to home. Some tocs take trainees and others don't and some will have to go somewhere as a trainee and move as a qualified. And of course money. The difference between the lowest paid drivers and highest paid is going to be around 30k by the end of this year.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a couple of friends who drive the odd day for a local bus company. They are retired but their bus driving qualifications are up to date.
Could that work on the railway. (Drivers and other disciplines)

it could work, but would be proportionally more expensive to maintain competence.

 

[Trainbike46]

it could work, but would be proportionally more expensive to maintain competence.

A way to reduce that effect could be to put part-time drivers/guards etc. on links with relatively few routes and traction types, making it easier to maintain competence

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately given the enormous cost of training drivers and maintaining competence, part time driving can only get you so far.

In the medium and long term it appears inevitable that technology will have to be used to lower the skill floor necessary to be a driver - although I imagine that even by suggesting that I will get my head bitten off.

 

[computerSaysNo]

In the medium and long term it appears inevitable that technology will have to be used to lower the skill floor necessary to be a driver

I agree with this.
I'm aware that some TOCs use a "Driver Advisory System" (DAS) which shows an advisory target speed and power/brake position based on various factors like current speed limit, next speed restriction, incline, current signal block state, next signal state, etc.
To me it would make sense to just integrate this into the train and just have the driver supervise it? For mainline running anyway. For precise positioning around platforms and such the driver could still retain full control.

 

[Bald Rick]

A way to reduce that effect could be to put part-time drivers/guards etc. on links with relatively few routes and traction types, making it easier to maintain competence

they can’t all work for c2c!

 

[dk1]

I have a couple of friends who drive the odd day for a local bus company. They are retired but their bus driving qualifications are up to date.
Could that work on the railway. (Drivers and other disciplines)

Very debatable that this would ever be agreed or accepted by ASLEF. Any use would have to be bottom of the heap & heavily scrutinised at every level. Probably the reason it’s not permitted now let alone for reasons mentioned above.

 

[HSTEd]

I agree with this.
I'm aware that some TOCs use a "Driver Advisory System" (DAS) which shows an advisory target speed and power/brake position based on various factors like current speed limit, next speed restriction, incline, current signal block state, next signal state, etc.
To me it would make sense to just integrate this into the train and just have the driver supervise it? For mainline running anyway. For precise positioning around platforms and such the driver could still retain full control.

Ultimately ETCS will help because it will tell the driver the distance-to-go to the stop point at the end of the movement authority at all times.

 

[philthetube]

Very debatable that this would ever be agreed or accepted by ASLEF. Any use would have to be bottom of the heap & heavily scrutinised at every level. Probably the reason it’s not permitted now let alone for reasons mentioned above.

It might work if they all join ASLEF

 

[MotCO]

Very debatable that this would ever be agreed or accepted by ASLEF. Any use would have to be bottom of the heap & heavily scrutinised at every level. Probably the reason it’s not permitted now let alone for reasons mentioned above.

Could the weekend rotas (particularly where services are worked by overtie) be operated by these part-timers? In this day and age, many people chose to work part time for a number of different reasons - why should the railways be any different?

 

[dk1]

Could the weekend rotas (particularly where services are worked by overtie) be operated by these part-timers? In this day and age, many people chose to work part time for a number of different reasons - why should the railways be any different?

I think the answer there is that if it could it woulve happened already.

 

[ComUtoR]

Many of the operating companies are having difficulty with driver training.

even prior to covid companies such as Northern were struggling to retain driver numbers due to poaching.

The whole "poaching" argument is a little unfair on the TOCs. Should people be free to apply wherever they choose in a free market ? We have people who apply, knowing they will leave within a few years. They are literally there for a key.

There are a couple of questions which I would interested to hear views on.

Should a driver school be created to do the initial training,

I do support the idea of a Training School but what would it look like ? Would they sift all the applications, arrange psychometric testing, and arrange the medical ? Who takes the hit on those costs ? Once you answer those questions you need to move to the next stage in the process. Rules. Will this Training School be there to specifically train Rules only ? Then what happens ?

charging TOC's for trainees,

So do you envisage this Training School to then hold the Trainees to ransom once they have passed ? If this school passes out fully fledged Trainees are they then fully contracted to the school or free to graduate and then leave ? This step in your process certainly needs clarification.

leaving to TOC to deal with stock and route when the trainee was handed over?

The TOC also has to deal with practical handling hours and any bespoke rules and policies applicable for the TOC. Who will carry out the interviews for the job ? Just because there is a fully fledged, rules trained Trainee, they still need a depot to go to and pass a job interview for the TOC or will the Trainees already be employed by the TOC before they start their training ?

Should companies poaching drivers be required to pay a transfer fee to the companies poached from?

Absolutely no. Any employee looking to move on from their TOC should be free to do so. If there was a 'Transfer fee' then their will certainly be TOCs who will never pay or see exorbitant fees. Even from an employee perspective. This is bad as you are then reliant on the new TOC agreeing to "buy" you.

In principle, I'd support schools but there are more questions than answers at the moment as to how it would work.

 

[Need2]

Yes, or potentially charging the drivers for their basic training, like many airlines do, similarly doctors, nurses, dentists, architects, accountants, lawyers, etc etc.

I knew the airline industry did but the others you mention?

 

[Bald Rick]

I knew the airline industry did but the others you mention?

Yes - it’s called university, and costs £9,250 a year.

 

[Whistler40145]

My thoughts are that drivers should only assigned to TOCs on completion of training and the Unions could assist with funding

 

[ComUtoR]

My thoughts are that drivers should only assigned to TOCs on completion of training

At what point in the training ?

PTS, Rules, practical handling ?

 

[Need2]

Yes - it’s called university, and costs £9,250 a year.

Got you now!

 

[Bald Rick]

There’s only two options:

1) the way it happens for most other employment requiring college, i.e.:
Prospective driver applies to college. Standard assessments required to enter. If successful, enters college. Whilst at college, applies for jobs in chosen field, with job offers conditional on ’graduating’ from college.

2) Prospective driver applies for a job with a specific TOC; everything in the process post application is the same as above, except no need to apply to specific TOCs later.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes - it’s called university, and costs £9,250 a year.

Absolutely not. But maybe you are joking.
Universities are for education, employers have to train people for the work they want to be done after that. I have been through the second phase twice, but both times my education made a big difference to the way it turned out.

I had just this argument with a very old friend's (new) wife who asked me "Did I think university had trained me well for my job?" My answer was "Of course not!" which offended the Mail-reading numbskull.

 

[Bald Rick]

Absolutely not. But maybe you are joking.
Universities are for education, employers have to train people for the work they want to be done after that. I have been through the second phase twice, but both times my education made a big difference to the way it turned out.

I had just this argument with a very old friend's (new) wife who asked me "Did I think university had trained me well for my job?" My answer was "Of course not!" which offended the Mail-reading numbskull.

this is precisely the point.

The common, basic part of a driver‘s training is education, in the same way that the basics of medicine, law, acccountancy and engineering are an education. The training comes later, on the job.

 

[AndrewE]

this is precisely the point.

The common, basic part of a driver‘s training is education, in the same way that the basics of medicine, law, acccountancy and engineering are an education. The training comes later, on the job.

Your examples are all professions where practising depends on a large body of very specialised knowledge which is crammed in as a foundation, and without which you cannot get further.
I don't know of any degree course which is relevant to being a driver, and with the financial pressures these days I am sure there are lots of people who would make very good drivers who don't go to university.