[RESOLVED] Potential Prosecution

[AstowJ]

A few days ago I was travelling from Filton Abbey Wood to Cardiff Central.

I usually buy a ticket on the Web but couldn't seem to get signal and by the time I had faffed the train had arrived. I arrived at Cardiff and I don't know why but I did an idiotic thing and lied about my origin station.

An enforcement officer took me aside and did the whole interview, and I just agreed to everything and told the truth, the whole time shaking in my boots and near tears as I've not been in trouble like this before.

I'm worried that this will lead to a prosecution, and I know I have to just wait for a letter but I'm a nervous wreck as I'm just terrified I will lose my job if I get a conviction.

When I receive a letter how should I reply, and do people get solicitors to reply on their behalf?

 

[Haywain]

I'm a nervous wreck as I'm just terrified I will lose my job if I get a conviction.

Stay calm - it is highly unlikely to be as serious as you think, even if you are convicted.

When I receive a letter how should I reply, and do people get solicitors to reply on their behalf?

There are lots of threads here with advice on how to reply, and @Hadders will be along soon with his excellent advice. There is absolutely no need for a solicitor at this stage.

 

[AstowJ]

I appreciate that, I'm just really quite concerned that if I do get a criminal record it really could lead to the loss of my job, and it's terrifying that it looks like that's incredibly likely.

Thank you so much for your swift reply!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm just really quite concerned that if I do get a criminal record it really could lead to the loss of my job

If you're a member of a union where you work, have a word with your union rep. They should be in a position to let you know what actually happens in your place.

If you're in a regulated profession (jobs like being a doctor or nurse, working in healthcare, being a teacher or a lawyer) try and have a look at your regulator's website. While an employer might run tighter rules than the regulator, it's fairly unlikely. So broadly, if a conviction for not paying your train fare won't get you blocked from practising, it probably won't get you sacked either.

But overwhelmingly, the position is as @Haywain said above. In general, people don't get sacked if they get a conviction for fare-dodging. So if you can, try and relax about this - at least until you are next in the office/factory/ whatever and can check your position with people who know.

 

[island]

Why didn't you buy a ticket from the ticket machine or ticket office at Filton Abbey Wood?

 

[Huntergreed]

A few days ago I was travelling from Filton Abbey Wood to Cardiff Central.

I usually buy a ticket on the Web but couldn't seem to get signal and by the time I had faffed the train had arrived. I arrived at Cardiff and I don't know why but I did an idiotic thing and lied about my origin station.

An enforcement officer took me aside and did the whole interview, and I just agreed to everything and told the truth, the whole time shaking in my boots and near tears as I've not been in trouble like this before.

I'm worried that this will lead to a prosecution, and I know I have to just wait for a letter but I'm a nervous wreck as I'm just terrified I will lose my job if I get a conviction.

When I receive a letter how should I reply, and do people get solicitors to reply on their behalf?

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with a few more details in your case, such as:

What exactly did you tell the officer?
Was the ticket office at Filton Abbey Wood open at the time?
Have you done this before?

At the moment, all you can do is wait until a letter arrives from the train company. When the letter arrives, post it on here (with personal details redacted) so we can offer the best advice specific to your case for your response. In general, your response should follow these guidelines written by @Hadders -

It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

All you can do, for the time being, is wait I'm afraid. When the letter does arrive, post it on here (remove all personal details) and we will be able to advise further (and once you have drafted a response, we will be happy to look at and offer any advice to amend where needed).

Try not to panic, if this is your first time doing this then it's very common to be offered an out of court settlement (normally the unpaid fare plus the administrative costs from investigating the matter (usually around £100)).

The good news for you is, generally speaking, GWR are one of the better operators for being willing to settle out of court, provided you've not come to their attention previously.

 

[AstowJ]

I can't recall fully what I said to the officer, my head was mostly in my hands and I was shaking and sweating. It wasn't the most dignified reaction if I'm honest. I essentially was honest to all their questions though, and tried to be as helpful as possible.

I don't think the ticket office was open, and I'm not sure if there are machines but I didn't check. I know this was stupid
No, I have no prior offences of any nature, which is why I'm quite so concerned.

I dont think it is GWR (unless i am mistaken?), my slip from the enforcement agent was for Travel for Wales i believe.

Thanks for your reply, I'm really lucky I came across this great resource.

 

[Huntergreed]

I can't recall fully what I said to the officer, my head was mostly in my hands and I was shaking and sweating. It wasn't the most dignified reaction if I'm honest. I essentially was honest to all their questions though, and tried to be as helpful as possible.

I don't think the ticket office was open, and I'm not sure if there are machines but I didn't check. I know this was stupid
No, I have no prior offences of any nature, which is why I'm quite so concerned.

I dont think it is GWR (unless i am mistaken?), my slip from the enforcement agent was for Travel for Wales i believe.

Thanks for your reply, I'm really lucky I came across this great resource.

No worries, I simply assumed it would have been GWR as opposed to TfW as Filton Abbey Wood is a GWR station.

It’s still very likely, in my view, that you will be offered a settlement (provided you respond positively to the letter), but this isn’t guaranteed.

Unfortunately the worst part is the waiting, but there’s little we can do until the letter arrives.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I can't recall fully what I said to the officer, my head was mostly in my hands and I was shaking and sweating. It wasn't the most dignified reaction if I'm honest. I essentially was honest to all their questions though, and tried to be as helpful as possible.

I know that this will be difficult to do, but just in case the worst happens and you end up in court, try to make a note of everything you can remember - what you did, what you said, what was said to you. Your memory will fade and if you need to confirm or deny what the railway said happened, it will help to be able to remind yourself!

 

[AstowJ]

Absolutely, I'll make a start on that now. The enforcement officer did record the whole thing so there won't be any arguing about that!

Oddly, I spoke to a person in my union and they gave me some rather dodgy advice so I'm probably not going to do what they say and stick to this forums advice.

Thanks all, really appreciating this

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Oddly, I spoke to a person in my union and they gave me some rather dodgy advice so I'm probably not going to do what they say and stick to this forums advice.

Without meaning any disrespect to your union, they're probably the people to talk to about the implications of a conviction on your work position, but not the people to tell you about fighting in court.

So do listen to them over their expertise!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This forum is a good place to get advice on railway ticketing matters as a browse through some similar threads will show. A couple of forum members have referred to the advice I normally give in cases like this but for completeness I'll repeat it below.

I expect you to receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and aski for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.

 

[Haywain]

Without meaning any disrespect to your union, they're probably the people to talk to about the implications of a conviction on your work position, but not the people to tell you about fighting in court.

So do listen to them over their expertise!

Talking to a union rep will probably be of little help other than to provide information about potential impacts of a prosecution but most unions will offer a legal helpline to their members. In the same way most household insurance policies will offer a similar advice service.

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Be aware that, since you usually buy tickets online, they will be able to access your ticket purchase history. Any other purchases which don’t cover the whole journey between Filton Abbey Wood and Cardiff Central will be viewed with suspicion (and, while they may not be able to prove in court that you were short-ticketing in such instances, they can nonetheless presume you were when calculating any settlement they offer you so you can avoid court for the time you were caught).

 

[AstowJ]

That's good to know, I've just checked my trainline app and I've never not covered the while journey. I know that's barely anything but at least suggests it's not something I have repeatedly done

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Dec 2022 ==

The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. .

Oh wow, I didn't realise it could take quite so long.

Thank you all for your help once again!

 

[AstowJ]

Good afternoon all,

I've attached the letter from TIL below.
This is my drafted response, any help would be really appreciated

Dear sir/madam,

Your Ref: xxxxxxxx

I'm writing in response to a letter sent by you dated XX XX.

I accept the liability that I was travelling without an appropriate ticket on the 28 of December 2022 when I was spoken to by a member of railway staff, and I made a serious error giving an incorrect location origin station. This is a journey I make often and the first time I have made this error in judgement, I can only apologise profusely.
I'm deeply sorry for any inconvenience that I have caused. I offer my sincerest apology and it will definitely be the last occasion I ever do this as I now understand the seriousness of what I did wrong.
I have learnt my lessons the hard way, and I'm more than willing to cover my original fare and the time your staff are having to spend investigating this matter, this is to help make amends for my error of judgement in not paying the correct fare.

I would be grateful if you would consider allowing me to settle the matter in this way without the need for court action, as any court action can have serious detriment to my career due to checks similar to Disclosure and Barring Service checks.

Yours faithfully,

 

[Huntergreed]

Good afternoon all,

I've attached the letter from TIL below.
This is my drafted response, any help would be really appreciated

Dear sir/madam,

Your Ref: xxxxxxxx

I'm writing in response to a letter sent by you dated XX XX.

I accept the liability that I was travelling without an appropriate ticket on the 28th of December 2022. I was spoken to by a member of railway staff, and I made a serious error of judgment by giving an the incorrect location origin station.

This is a journey I make often and it is the first time I have made this error in judgement. I can only apologise profusely.
I'm deeply sorry for any inconvenience costs incurred as a result of my lack of good judgement. I offer my sincerest apology and it this will definitely be the last occasion I ever do this as I now understand the seriousness of what I did wrong and the importance of purchasing a valid ticket before travel.

I have learnt my lessons the hard way, and I'm more than willing to cover my original fare and the time and costs your staff are having to spend investigating this matter. This is to help make amends for my error of judgement in not paying the correct fare.
I would be grateful if you would consider allowing me to settle the matter in this way without the need for court action, as any court action can have serious detriment to my career due to checks similar to Disclosure and Barring Service checks.

Yours faithfully,

I’ve made a few amendments (the separate quotes are just where I would split the paragraphs to make it read better as i couldn't manage to get it all in one quote!)

Perhaps after the final sentence (I’ve scored out the last bit as, brutal as it may seem, they won’t care about the impact it will have on you or the offence appearing on DBS, they just want to you to show remorse and to demonstrate how you have learned from this).

Perhaps another sentence at the end summarising what you have learned and how you look forward to using them honestly going forward? There are people far better qualified than me to discuss that though!

 

[Wethebest838]

Up to you but you can add this -

“I’ve learnt a very valuable lesson from this incident. It’s educated me on how much money the railway companies lose due to fare evasion and how that it is very unacceptable to commit fare evasion.”

TIL can be hard ball but in my experience dealing with them, as long as you haven’t come to their attention before, then you should be fine.

 

[AstowJ]

TIL can be hard ball but in my experience dealing with them, as long as you haven’t come to their attention before, then you should be fine.

I appreciate your addition to the end of the reply, I'll incorporate something similar, thank you

I'm hoping it'll be okay, I've not done anything like this previously but just have a pit in my stomach that they'll go the whole hog and I'll get a criminal record, which would be less than good for my career. I've been a nervous wreck since the 28th so glad the letter has come quite so swiftly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2023 ==

An extra question in addition to any help with a response:

They've indicated they're happy to receive correspondence via an attached letter. Should I just send a PDF of my letter to make this as speedy as possible? I don't have a printer, but obviously can go to the local library, but I was wondering which would be the fastest, acceptable way

 

[Wethebest838]

I appreciate your addition to the end of the reply, I'll incorporate something similar, thank you

I'm hoping it'll be okay, I've not done anything like this previously but just have a pit in my stomach that they'll go the whole hog and I'll get a criminal record, which would be less than good for my career. I've been a nervous wreck since the 28th so glad the letter has come quite so swiftly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jan 2023 ==

An extra question in addition to any help with a response:

They've indicated they're happy to receive correspondence via an attached letter. Should I just send a PDF of my letter to make this as speedy as possible? I don't have a printer, but obviously can go to the local library, but I was wondering which would be the fastest, acceptable way

It’ll be okay. I promise you that for a fact.

I was in the same boat with my cousin and we got it resolved with TIL thanks to everyone here offering amazing support. As morbid as it sounds, the help here saved my cousin who was in such a bad way over it.

As you have never done this, I’m 100% sure you’ll be offered an out of court settlement. Trust there are worst offenders and I knew one of them

Do note: as TIL can be difficult apparently and are rather stupid too so you may need to send another letter if they say that they are going to do a summons after your letter.

Don’t fear. Even if the next letter fails after that, you can chase an out of court settlement on the day with the prosecutor but we won’t get into that as it won’t go that far but just wanted to tell you to ease you

Regarding sending the letter, personally I would send it as a letter but send it tracked so you know it got there. Again, it is up to you thought. Do not ring them thought!!!

 

[AstowJ]

Do not ring them thought!!!

I wasn't going to, but you made me curious, why not?!

 

[Wethebest838]

I wasn't going to, but you made me curious, why not?!

Just to not irritate them. Plus it all should be formal written communication for their and your benefit as you have evidence and vice versa.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just to not irritate them. Plus it all should be formal written communication for their and your benefit as you have evidence and vice versa.

This is sound advice.

 

[AstowJ]

Thanks all, I've written the letter and I'll find a way to print it tomorrow and get it sent off special delivery. It currently stands as:

Dear Sir / Madam,

Your Ref: xxx

I'm writing in response to a letter sent by you dated 6th January 2023

I accept the liability that I was travelling without an appropriate ticket on the 28th of December 2022 when I was spoken to by a member of railway staff, and I made a serious error of judgement by giving the incorrect origin station. This is a journey I make often and the first time I have made this error in judgement, I can only apologise profusely.

I'm deeply sorry for any costs incurred as a result of my lack of good judgement. I offer my sincerest apology and this will definitely be the last occasion I ever do this as I now understand the seriousness of what I did wrong and the importance of purchasing a valid ticket before travel.

I have learnt my lessons the hard way, and I'm more than willing to cover my original fare and the time and costs your staff are having to spend investigating this matter, this is to help make amends for my error of judgement in not paying the correct fare.

I would be grateful if you would consider allowing me to settle the matter in this way without the need for court action.

I’ve learnt a very valuable lesson from this incident. This has educated me on how much money the railway companies lose due to fare evasion and how it is very unacceptable to commit fare evasion.

Yours faithfully,

 

[RPI]

As others have said, TIL can play hard ball so if your first reply gets shot down then don't get too disheartened and try again, posting their reply on here for the experts to help with what you send back.
Usually TIL will soften on the second correspondence!

 

[AstowJ]

As others have said, TIL can play hard ball so if your first reply gets shot down then don't get too disheartened and try again, posting their reply on here for the experts to help with what you send back.
Usually TIL will soften on the second correspondence!

I really appreciate that, I'm not hopeful tbh, but it's worth a go. Would the second correspondence be essentially the same letter though?

 

[RPI]

I really appreciate that, I'm not hopeful tbh, but it's worth a go. Would the second correspondence be essentially the same letter though?

I'm not completely sure, just going on previous posters to this forum who had interactions with TIL.

 

[WesternLancer]

I really appreciate that, I'm not hopeful tbh, but it's worth a go. Would the second correspondence be essentially the same letter though?

Yeah - same sort of stuff re-iterated with prob stronger emphasis on apols and lessons learned and promise to ensure never happens again etc etc (that's if you used all your cards in the 1st letter). We do see threads where people do ask 'what more can I say than I said last time?' - but it does seem the only way to go in those circs.

You can post draft here for comments of course.

 

[AstowJ]

Update:

I've received this letter which unless I'm really mistaken is incredibly good news and this is hopefully the end of it.

Thank you to everyone that supported and I really appreciated it so much. I was expected multiple letter and further correspondence and I'm so happy that it's been put behind me quite so swiftly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jan 2023 ==

One quick question, I don't understand one bit of the letter.

I've paid the admin charge now, would I still need to send a letter, or is this all sorted?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Update:

I've received this letter which unless I'm really mistaken is incredibly good news and this is hopefully the end of it.

Thank you to everyone that supported and I really appreciated it so much. I was expected multiple letter and further correspondence and I'm so happy that it's been put behind me quite so swiftly.

Yes - this is good news. Make the payment that TIL have asked for, and the whole matter is over. No criminal record and almost certainly no need to tell your employer or regulator (if you're in that sort of job). It might be worth checking the employment position with your union, depending on what your rep has already told you when you asked them about it earlier, but I would expect that just to be a matter of confirming that there's nothing to worry about.