Resilience of Ticketing system

[MarlowDonkey]

In a thread on the Disputes forum there's a statement that

At my home station, there was nobody at the ticket office and my TOC C2C had yet another issue with their purchase system meaning that I was not able to purchase a ticket on their app and machine.

Is this really correct? Surely there are enough independent ticketing systems that if one doesn't work, others will? If you purchased a ToD ticket, that's only going to work for you if the ticket machine is working, but how else are ticket machines connected to apps or websites?

 

[4COR]

The thread implies that there is a general issue with the performance of the back end system - however, not knowing which station it is and how the ticket machine at the station is connected, is it not possible that it could be using a similar connection as the phone and both are suffering as a result? In which case, you might struggle to use any web based system (ie you're in a mobile blackspot)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The video by the poster concerned looked more like a misaligned or partly failed touchscreen to me.

 

[4COR]

Yes, though it is quite slow when they change the number of passengers (the "spinner" appears for quite a while), which might indicate either a performance issue, or connection issue.

 

[LYradial]

I thought they were touch screens, not stab at random in the vicinity

I did notice that the machine responded immediately when the thumb was used to increment the number 2, it was slow to respond but while it showed it was still downloading the self proclaimed expert continued to stab at random to demonstrate that it did not work for her.

it was slow to respond but no slower than the forums own site when you ask for search for tickets

 

[Belperpete]

I have found that some ticket machines can still sell tickets even if their internet link is down. They cannot of course issue tickets for collection. What I can't recall now is if it would accept credit card payments in this state.

 

[skyhigh]

however, not knowing which station it is and how the ticket machine at the station is connected, is it not possible that it could be using a similar connection as the phone and both are suffering as a result?

The station in question was a C2C station. I think they are fairly unusual (maybe unique?) in that the same Trenitalia PICO4UK back end system is used for their app and TVMs, so it is feasible that a failure with their back end will break both their own app and TVMs.

Other ticketing apps will still work as normal however.

The C2C app is, in my opinion, particularly poor and there are many better options anyway.

 

[4COR]

The station in question was a C2C station. I think they are fairly unusual (maybe unique?) in that the same Trenitalia PICO4UK back end system is used for their app and TVMs, so it is feasible that a failure with their back end will break both their own app and TVMs.

That's interesting, and (being my line of work) one would expect decent load and operational acceptance testing for such a solution. I was wondering as well if some of the station based TVMs might use mobile networks for comms (where wired solutions are not available) which would cause both mobile and TVMs to suffer similarly (and separate to any back end issues) - possibly seems unlikely given the ticket office would require comms as well.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I was wondering as well if some of the station based TVMs might use mobile networks for comms (where wired solutions are not available) which would cause both mobile and TVMs to suffer similarly (and separate to any back end issues) - possibly seems unlikely given the ticket office would require comms as well.

It was c2c, so in London or Essex. Surely all stations on the main lines in that part of the world would always have had telephones, so a wired solution should have been available? Interesting though that the app and ticket machines use the same system, but as noted, other ticket retailers are available.

 

[Haywain]

I was wondering as well if some of the station based TVMs might use mobile networks for comms (where wired solutions are not available)

I think that would be unlikely, as it would struggle to satisfy IT security requirements.

 

[OscarH]

That's interesting, and (being my line of work) one would expect decent load and operational acceptance testing for such a solution

You don't have to spend much time with Pico's TIS to lose faith that any QA is done

I think that would be unlikely, as it would struggle to satisfy IT security requirements.

I can't see any real justification for why a machine couldn't be practically as secure on a public data connection if there was no wired internal network option available. I could see it being against "the rules" though

 

[Wallsendmag]

You don't have to spend much time with Pico's TIS to lose faith that any QA is done


I can't see any real justification for why a machine couldn't be practically as secure on a public data connection if there was no wired internal network option available. I could see it being against "the rules" though

Neither could we but Haywain and myself had to turn a TVM or two off because of it

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that would be unlikely, as it would struggle to satisfy IT security requirements.

I'm sorry but that is not true in the slightest (unless whoever wrote the requirements had no understanding of the subject). You've heard of VPNs presumably? Organisations requiring far higher security than a TVM have people working remotely via VPNs and uncontrolled internet connections.

 

[OscarH]

I'm sorry but that is not true in the slightest (unless whoever wrote the requirements had no understanding of the subject).

I think we all know the latter applies to a significant portion of the people writing these requirements

 

[signed]

I think that would be unlikely, as it would struggle to satisfy IT security requirements.

That is not true, most portable card machines run on 3/4G, though they do support WiFi/Bluetooth (for the phone controlled ones) in most cases. Fixed card machines I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me that they use their own separate network from the vending machine.

And they are much more sensitive than a TVM in my opinion.

 

[Tom]

I think that would be unlikely, as it would struggle to satisfy IT security requirements.

From (relatively recent) experience, as long as sufficient safeguards are put in place for both hard-wired and portable card terminals then there's no particular issue either way in practice. Different organisations may take the letter of the 'law' in extremis or be more pragmatic about it as long as they are following the PCI DSS terms. I am aware of one audit company demanding a separate internet connection being in place for a hard-wired card terminal (but apparently no encryption demands) but being wholly against an encrypted VPN tunnel on a segregated VLAN. I would concur that a card terminal is somewhat more sensitive than a TVMs basic functions.

And having been through a few TOC IT security "audits" (if you can call them that), almost all of them lean towards not being pragmatic in any way.

 

[Haywain]

From (relatively recent) experience, as long as sufficient safeguards are put in place for both hard-wired and portable card terminals then there's no particular issue either way in practice. Different organisations may take the letter of the 'law' in extremis or be more pragmatic about it as long as they are following the PCI DSS terms. I am aware of one audit company demanding a separate internet connection being in place for a hard-wired card terminal (but apparently no encryption demands) but being wholly against an encrypted VPN tunnel on a segregated VLAN. I would concur that a card terminal is somewhat more sensitive than a TVMs basic functions.

And having been through a few TOC IT security "audits" (if you can call them that), almost all of them lean towards not being pragmatic in any way.

You have summarised very well the situation I am thinking of.

most portable card machines run on 3/4G,

I think that's rather a long way from the truth in the UK.

 

[Dai Corner]

most portable card machines run on 3/4G,

I think that's rather a long way from the truth in the UK.

Most stands selling food or goods at outdoor events have card machines, as do my plumber and window cleaner. They must use mobile data.

In the transport world, taxis, buses and train conductors have them. The latter may use the train Wi-Fi, but that in turn uses public mobile networks.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Most stands selling food or goods at outdoor events have card machines, as do my plumber and window cleaner. They must use mobile data.

Some have a gadget which would appear to Bluetooth itself to a phone. Others appear to have their data connection built in. Either way, they would be seem to be using 3/4/5G or a local wifi connection.

It would seem that in the original case, the ticket machine was probably operational, if a bit sluggish. For whatever reason the complainant insisted on using the TOC's App which unusually used the same underlying software as the ticket machine.

That leads to a question which may not yet have been tested in a court of law. The ticket office is closed and the ticket machine out of action. However you have a phone which is sufficiently charged and has access to a choice of ticketing sites. Are you expected to use the phone as a first opportunity to pay?

 

[MrJeeves]

I think that's rather a long way from the truth in the UK.

For portable ones, I don't think it is really. The circular ones you see on things like vending machines and self-service car washes all use mobile data, and so do a lot of food places (not just the food stands mentioned above!), and so will some on-board catering providers in the UK (though many will use separate on-board WiFi networks). In some cases, it will be a card reader connected to a phone with Bluetooth, which then connects to mobile data, as well.

 

[skyhigh]

Are you expected to use the phone as a first opportunity to pay?

No.

 

[jumble]

I'm sorry but that is not true in the slightest (unless whoever wrote the requirements had no understanding of the subject). You've heard of VPNs presumably? Organisations requiring far higher security than a TVM have people working remotely via VPNs and uncontrolled internet connections.

In addition plenty of debit /Credit Card Reader terminals which have to be PCI compliant use 4/5 G

 

[Dai Corner]

No.

I don't know what the law is, but I think if I was a magistrate presented with evidence that a ticketless passenger had claimed they had no opportunity to pay as there was no working TVM or staff at their origin station but had purchased e-tickets from there before on the phone they were carrying I'd find that they were intending to avoid payment.

 

[Watershed]

I don't know what the law is, but I think if I was a magistrate presented with evidence that a ticketless passenger had claimed they had no opportunity to pay as there was no working TVM or staff at their origin station but had purchased e-tickets from there before on the phone they were carrying I'd find that they were intending to avoid payment.

The NRCoT permit passengers to buy a ticket onboard (or at their interchange/destination) in such cases so it is an entirely legitimate practice.

 

[Starmill]

For portable ones, I don't think it is really. The circular ones you see on things like vending machines and self-service car washes all use mobile data, and so do a lot of food places (not just the food stands mentioned above!), and so will some on-board catering providers in the UK (though many will use separate on-board WiFi networks). In some cases, it will be a card reader connected to a phone with Bluetooth, which then connects to mobile data, as well.

Indeed. The use of cheap card readers on 3G data exploded in the years following it's launch in 2003 didn't it. Sometimes these were even bolted onto old coin operated machines.

The rump of this era of car parking machines caused some controversy a few years ago when 3G connectivity finally started to bite the dust.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2025 ==

I don't know what the law is, but I think if I was a magistrate presented with evidence that a ticketless passenger had claimed they had no opportunity to pay as there was no working TVM or staff at their origin station but had purchased e-tickets from there before on the phone they were carrying I'd find that they were intending to avoid payment.

It's unlikely that you'd even be entitled to find that.

 

[Dai Corner]

The NRCoT permit passengers to buy a ticket onboard (or at their interchange/destination) in such cases so it is an entirely legitimate practice.

It's unlikely that you'd even be entitled to find that.

Is it a loophole that should be closed?

 

[Watershed]

Is it a loophole that should be closed?

It's not a loophole in the first place.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's not a loophole in the first place.

E-tickets are one of the most popular, if not the most popular, format. It seems to me to be inconsistent not to regard them as an 'opportunity to pay' for the purposes of the NRCoT and the law.

 

[Haywain]

E-tickets are one of the most popular, if not the most popular, format. It seems to me to be inconsistent not to regard them as an 'opportunity to pay' for the purposes of the NRCoT and the law.

No, an opportunity to buy has to be available to everybody.

 

[Watershed]

E-tickets are one of the most popular, if not the most popular, format. It seems to me to be inconsistent not to regard them as an 'opportunity to pay' for the purposes of the NRCoT and the law.

Just because it's the most popular doesn't mean that everyone wants or is able to use it, let alone that they should be forced to do so. It's exaclty the same as how cards are more popular than cash, but that doesn't mean cash should be removed as an option.