Reservation compulsory ... for standing places? More RENFE madness

[nwales58]

It's difficult to make sense of this.

One service between Pamplona and Zaragoza sees an older EMU replaced ...

Cambio de tren para el trayecto Zaragoza-Pamplona: añade 200 plazas más, pero de pie

A partir del martes, 23 de enero, se actualiza el nuevo tren con una capacidad total de 600 personas.

www.heraldo.es

... This change gives an improvement in accessibility and an increase of 208 places per journey, but these new places are standing.

This is a Regional Express service which is (supposedly) reservation compulsory and can be full, at which point more tickets cannot be sold.

So will RENFE really sell a compulsory reservation to *stand* for a 2 hour journey? I hope the plans is that paying customers get a guaranteed seat and free season tickets do not, but I have seen no explanation so far.

The change is from a 470 (pair probably) to 46x Civia, which are palatial by british standards with masses of standing space, but a suburban plastic seat for 2 hours+

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely that's just like a counted place?

 

[nwales58]

We use counted places for advance quotas, there will still be seats when the CP reaches zero. There are others such as TGV non-seat reservation in special cases.

But this seems weird in the land where you have to reserve on most, not all, regional trains (RE+MD, except Catalunya) and cannot choose to stand on a full train. But now your compulsory reservation might be to stand.

 

[rvdborgt]

As far as I can see, the regional trains between Pamplona and Zaragoza don't have mandatory reservations. Or if they do, then Renfe are omitting that information from the data they send to the European Timetable Centre.

 

[nwales58]

Indeed ... now look on Renfe itself. Monday 29/01/2024 Pamplona-Zaragoza RE at 1629 is full, the MD at 1725 is full, also the 1840 RE. With no forced reservation they could not be full.

The data they supply can be inconsistent:
Renfe MD mostly appear as IR + compulsory reservations
Renfe RE sometimes become IR+comp.res.
but sometimes R - logical if no reservation necessary

But on this route both RE and MD are uploaded as R in the international data and yet actually are res.comp. on Renfe. It's mad.

 

[Austriantrain]

It's mad.

When has RENFE ever done anything that is not mad?

 

[northwichcat]

When has RENFE ever done anything that is not mad?

RENFE might not be a rail enthusiast friendly operator, but remember their primary purpose is to serve the residents of Spain. If they meet the needs of as many Spanish residents as possible then they're doing a good job, even if you find their policies annoying.

 

[Austriantrain]

RENFE might not be a rail enthusiast friendly operator, but remember their primary purpose is to serve the residents of Spain. If they meet the needs of as many Spanish residents as possible then they're doing a good job, even if you find their policies annoying.

But they don’t. I don’t care about them being rail enthusiast unfriendly, they are passenger unfriendly and incompetent.

 

[northwichcat]

I don’t care about them being rail enthusiast unfriendly, they are passenger unfriendly and incompetent.

When I've used RENFE regional services for daytrips when in Spain my criticism would be the service level provision is lower than in other countries. Bag scans are a bit of a nusiance but I'd rather have those than a security incident on the train. Having a guaranteed seat with some form of table, a good amount of leg room, windows with a view, air conditioning and a normally punctual service is more than we get on some British services.

 

[Cloud Strife]

RENFE might not be a rail enthusiast friendly operator, but remember their primary purpose is to serve the residents of Spain. If they meet the needs of as many Spanish residents as possible then they're doing a good job, even if you find their policies annoying.

RENFE are anything but passenger friendly. Yes, the AVE is great, but apart from that, it's a complete mess. Incompetent is being kind to them in many cases, especially when it comes to non-AVE services or especially local services.

An example: it appears to be impossible for RENFE to offer tickets to destinations on local lines. Let's say you want to go to Fuengirola from Valencia, a quite reasonable journey by train if you don't want to take the plane. Nope, you can only buy tickets to Malaga, even though the whole journey is on RENFE.

The AVE is wonderful and does a good job, but it's largely at the expense of the rest of the network.

 

[northwichcat]

RENFE are anything but passenger friendly. Yes, the AVE is great, but apart from that, it's a complete mess. Incompetent is being kind to them in many cases, especially when it comes to non-AVE services or especially local services.

An example: it appears to be impossible for RENFE to offer tickets to destinations on local lines. Let's say you want to go to Fuengirola from Valencia, a quite reasonable journey by train if you don't want to take the plane. Nope, you can only buy tickets to Malaga, even though the whole journey is on RENFE.

The AVE is wonderful and does a good job, but it's largely at the expense of the rest of the network.

And comparing us to other countries... I was staying at a hotel in Annemasse (in France) and did a trip to Montreux. I was able to find one ticket that allowed me to do all of the following in the same day:

Journey 1:
Annemasse to Geneva train
Geneva to Lausanne train
Lausanne to Veytaux-Chillon S-Bahn

Journey 2:
Chillon castle to Montreux trolleybus

Journey 3:
Montreux to Lausanne train

Journey 4 + 5 + 6: Rides on Lausanne Metro

Journey 7:
Lausanne to Geneva train
Geneva to Annemasse train

Yet in the UK we can't always manage through ticketing when bus and train services are under the same parent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

RENFE might not be a rail enthusiast friendly operator, but remember their primary purpose is to serve the residents of Spain. If they meet the needs of as many Spanish residents as possible then they're doing a good job, even if you find their policies annoying.

The massive coach market there would suggest they aren't doing that particularly well either.

 

[stuu]

And comparing us to other countries... I was staying at a hotel in Annemasse (in France) and did a trip to Montreux. I was able to find one ticket that allowed me to do all of the following in the same day:

Journey 1:
Annemasse to Geneva train
Geneva to Lausanne train
Lausanne to Veytaux-Chillon S-Bahn

Journey 2:
Chillon castle to Montreux trolleybus

Journey 3:
Montreux to Lausanne train

Journey 4 + 5 + 6: Rides on Lausanne Metro

Journey 7:
Lausanne to Geneva train
Geneva to Annemasse train

Yet in the UK we can't always manage through ticketing when bus and train services are under the same parent.

But we can manage to sell a through ticket from any single station to any other. As mentioned above, Renfe won't. They also don't believe in the ability to change trains, as if the R in their name was completely meaningless.

 

[nwales58]

The massive coach market there would suggest they aren't doing that particularly well either.

Example: roll up to Santiago de Compostela railway station after lunch on Friday and discover that every train to Vigo is 'Tren Completo' until after 2200. It's an hourly regional service FFS.

Find the coach station and the right ticket window, hourly service, ticket available, no problem.

Example 2: in the news that you can buy a through Renfe+Alsa ticket to Denia, Javea and the like. If only you could buy a through ticket on Renfe AVE/Alvia to any station on a Renfe MD/RE/R service.

 

[Starmill]

RENFE might not be a rail enthusiast friendly operator, but remember their primary purpose is to serve the residents of Spain. If they meet the needs of as many Spanish residents as possible then they're doing a good job, even if you find their policies annoying.

I think the post you quoted didn't suggest anything to do with enthusiasts or their personal priorities. I think it was suggesting that Renfe have a corporate culture of "this is what you are getting" and if demand appears to be outstripping supply they will simply ignore it and pretend it isn't. This is a contrast with other national operations and open access providers, who are attempting to cater for and capture the best possible demand they can find.

In this country, train operators rightly come under pressure when they experience overcrowding. However, it's very rare indeed for someone to be denied boarding due to the general supply being too low. Ultimately this is all done to the benefit of the customer, because it's so unfair to turn large numbers of people away. Pretty much the only time this happens is during service disruption when people are left on the platform because they physically couldn't get in through the doors. Train operators' management often put a lot of effort into getting more capacity onto the worst-affected services, even heavily-subsided and usually overlooked CrossCountry have successfully made a case to the government to add more capacity back to their diagrams than their HSTs provided.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the post you quoted didn't suggest anything to do with enthusiasts or their personal priorities. I think it was suggesting that Renfe have a corporate culture of "this is what you are getting" and if demand appears to be outstripping supply they will simply ignore it and pretend it isn't.

It might not be what that post says. However, I have noticed a number of people posting on here that the thing they don't like with RENFE is the mandatory reservations as they like to travel around on an Eurail pass with a flexible itinerary, meaning having to arrange seat reservations is a pain.

In this country, train operators rightly come under pressure when they experience overcrowding. However, it's very rare indeed for someone to be denied boarding due to the general supply being too low.

It can happen on services on Saturdays in December, as well as after special events.

Whether it's right or wrong in the UK we accept if you want to catch the 09:35 Manchester to London service and aren't boarding at Piccadilly you'll likely hear an announcement that the train will be very busy and if you're on a flexible ticket with no seat reservation you might want to consider travelling on the following service.

 

[Tester]

Whether it's right or wrong in the UK we accept if you want to catch the 09:35 Manchester to London service and aren't boarding at Piccadilly you'll likely hear an announcement that the train will be very busy and if you're on a flexible ticket with no seat reservation you might want to consider travelling on the following service.

And we can consider doing that, or travelling as planned, depending on our particular situation.

How is it a positive to have that choice removed?

And what if the following service is the same - and the next - and the next?

 

[yorkie]

RENFE might not be a rail enthusiast friendly operator, but remember their primary purpose is to serve the residents of Spain. If they meet the needs of as many Spanish residents as possible then they're doing a good job, even if you find their policies annoying.

If I lived in Spain, I would feel encouraged to get a car.

RENFE's policies put me off visiting Spain, so if the Spanish want to reduce visitors to Spain, then yes RENFE are doing a good job.

Whether it's right or wrong in the UK we accept if you want to catch the 09:35 Manchester to London service and aren't boarding at Piccadilly you'll likely hear an announcement that the train will be very busy and if you're on a flexible ticket with no seat reservation you might want to consider travelling on the following service.

So why can't RENFE offer similar advice, instead of denying travel?

 

[northwichcat]

How is it a positive to have that choice removed?

There can be positives for those who make seat reservations. You're not going to find someone else in your seat (well if you do they'll have a seat that they aren't sat in). You don't need to worry about someone taking your seat while you're using the toilet or buying a coffee. Plus no standing passengers makes it easier to get to the toilet or shop. It can also make it easier to keep an eye on any luggage you have. Was there not a report of criminal gangs taking advantage of crowded TransPennine Express trains to steal suitcases from the luggage racks?

 

[Starmill]

There can be positives for those who make seat reservations. You're not going to find someone else in your seat (well if you do they'll have a seat that they aren't sat in). You don't need to worry about someone taking your seat while you're using the toilet or buying a coffee. Plus no standing passengers makes it easier to get to the toilet or shop. It can also make it easier to keep an eye on any luggage you have. Was there not a report of criminal gangs taking advantage of crowded TransPennine Express trains to steal suitcases from the luggage racks?

I think these points are all quite detached from reality. You've got absolutely no evidence that this makes the train more secure.

 

[Tester]

There can be positives for those who make seat reservations. You're not going to find someone else in your seat (well if you do they'll have a seat that they aren't sat in). You don't need to worry about someone taking your seat while you're using the toilet or buying a coffee. Plus no standing passengers makes it easier to get to the toilet or shop. It can also make it easier to keep an eye on any luggage you have. Was there not a report of criminal gangs taking advantage of crowded TransPennine Express trains to steal suitcases from the luggage racks?

Nobody is disputing that there are positives for those making seat reservations.

The issue is banning from travel those who don't have a reservation for whatever reason.

 

[duesselmartin]

Have a carriage that is reservation only and one with free choice and you have the best of both worlds.

 

[northwichcat]

I think these points are all quite detached from reality. You've got absolutely no evidence that this makes the train more secure.

As I'm something who has had social anxiety disorder I feel you're being ignorant to the many passengers who have some form of mental health issue. A passenger is a lot more likely to have some form of anxiety than to need assisted boarding. For some people it's so bad that there's courses to overcome anxiety of travelling on public transport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2024 ==

Have a carriage that is reservation only and one with free choice and you have the best of both worlds.

If you make a carriage reserved seating only and don't allow standing, then it'll potentially making the standing issue worse in the other carriages.

 

[Tester]

As I'm something who has had social anxiety disorder I feel you're being ignorant to the many passengers who have some form of mental health issue. A passenger is a lot more likely to have some form of anxiety than to need assisted boarding. For some people it's so bad that there's courses to overcome anxiety of travelling on public transport.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2024 ==

I think that telling someone that they cannot travel on their chosen train is likely to cause anxiety.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jan 2024 ==

If you make a carriage reserved seating only and don't allow standing, then it'll potentially making the standing issue worse in the other carriages.

So don't do it!

We are going around in circles!

 

[Segedunum]

I think we've deviated far enough from the original topic.

if anyone wants to discuss the merits and pitfalls of compulsory reservations - please use the relevant threads.