Research Inquiry - Busy commuter trains!

[duggie_1001]

Hi,

My name is Ryan Dugmore, I am currently in fourth year of university studying computer aided product design. For my final year project I have decided to design a new style of train carriage. The “commuter carriage” in off peak times will be a regular carriage, then in peak business commuter times when trains are overcrowded the internal schematics of the seating can be quickly changed to ensure comfortable travel for more passengers. I am writing this post to see if anyone can help me, or provide me with any additional ideas i may have overlooked. I really need to learn more about how seats are fixed to carriages in order to develop my new system. I would appreciate information from anyone that may be able help understand existing systems.

Thankyou in advance,

Ryan

 

[Pumbaa]

Hi Ryan,

My suggestion is that you detail to us your ideas so far, inc. schematics where practical, and from there we feedback to you! If it is any help to you, have a look at this as well, the new idea from Alstom for commuter friendly carriages.

Look forward to hearing your ideas!

 

[O L Leigh]

They are bolted down to the floor and to the train sides.

I like the idea, but you've got a few problems to overcome.

1) The changeover has to be quick. Commuter trains have short turnaround times at terminus stations, typically less than 10 minutes.

2) The changeover will need to be efficient for staff. If it takes one person 2 minutes to change one carriage over it's going to take 16 minutes for that person to do an 8 car train, and that's not counting the time it takes to clear the train of incoming passengers and preventing outgoing passengers boarding.

Generally, a commuter service will be DOO, which means the only staff on the train is the driver. Being a driver myself I know that if the task fell to the driver many just wouldn't bother. If the changeover happens at a staffed station, such as a London terminus, you will still be short on staff as there is just a platform despatcher, who may be despatching more than two platforms at any one time, and the train cleaner. So who is going to do the work?

3) The mechanism needs to be robust and reliable. You can't have it jamming halfway between one configuration and the other, and nor can you have it collapsing under the weight of passengers. It also has to be tamper-proof to prevent the passengers making their own decisions about what configuration is appropriate and pulling out more seats. Plus it also has to be resistant to attack from vandals.

4) Where will the extra seats go when not in use? Will they fold away? If so, where? I can't see removable seats being a good idea because where will you put them.

I think that you need to go and have a look at SET's Cl376 units. These probably best meet the criteria you have set yourself but use a fixed configuration.

O L Leigh

 

[duggie_1001]

Thanks for such a prompt response,

I am only in the early development stages of my design so have no fixed ideas as of yet.

Thanks for the suggested problems they are very useful.

In my proposed design i am only going to be applying it to one carriage. As you would have a "first class coach" or "quiet Coach" I am proposing the "commuter coach". It would provide the option of more comfortable standing area for commuters who don't mind standing. I feel this will ensure swift altering of the carriage. I do need to consider who will do it though obviously !!!

Yes I do propose a robust, reliable mechanism and rather than the seats folding away or being removed i had envisaged they would rotate. The seats would sit in normal layout at off peak times. Then when required they would move out, turn and lock. The layout then would be more of that of a tube train. I have no idea how the mechanism will work yet but currently I am only carrying out background research.

You will have to forgive my ignorance but what are "SET's Cl376 units".

Many thanks for you help.

Ryan

 

[Pumbaa]

South Eastern Trains class 376 units, see here.

Go to London Bridge is the best way to see them.

 

[thelem]

Are you proposing that the number of seats will change depending on the configuration? Because you won't be able to fit as many seats in a tube-style configuration compared to facing/airline seating.

The best current solutions to this problem are the perch seats that you can see in the 376 photo Pumbaa posted, and fold down seats that flip back up when no one is sitting on them.

 

[bluenoxid]

Interesting

Take a block of seats back to back. You could make one set fold down seats and the seat block could rotate in to the wall.

You will also need to consider crashability and also (depending on how in depth the coursework goes) consider the business case (eg use of first class during the peaks and the increase in capacity)

 

[Daimler]

While I think this is an excellent idea , I do think it's important to consider how far compromised it would need to be in order to meet the railway's highly stringent safety practices - or whether the costs involved would be prohibitive.

But, if it works, it could be superb!

 

[duggie_1001]

Thanks again for everyones respones they are very helpful, i welcome more if anyone has any!!

I am currently in the process of researching all the strict safety and crash regualtions. I'm looking at the relevant BSi's TSI's and RSSB regualtions, sifting through all the information is just brilliant ! As for the depth of the coursework i have to take it through as if it were a real product. So it will be a comprehensive project with full costing, technical drawings, Bills of materials and proved using FEA software.

I am currently in contact with the 4 leading manufacturers trying to arrange a meeting to help me understand the manufacturing process a bit more!

 

[jon0844]

The way the seats are bolted to the side/bottom of the train doesn't seem that complicated and I suspect that if there was a serious collision the seats would in fact shear off and come away.

Obviously I don't know the regulations, or how much force would need to be present to make them come away from their mountings - but on modern trains there seems to be even less bolts.

What usually happens in a train crash? Do the seats stay put or come away?

 

[Daimler]

The way the seats are bolted to the side/bottom of the train doesn't seem that complicated and I suspect that if there was a serious collision the seats would in fact shear off and come away.

Obviously I don't know the regulations, or how much force would need to be present to make them come away from their mountings - but on modern trains there seems to be even less bolts.

What usually happens in a train crash? Do the seats stay put or come away?

I assume they stay put, since the safety authorities deem it necessary for all new seats on trains (presumably excepting inner-suburban ones, such as the 378s) have to be higher than the average male's head, to stop you flying out of your seat in an accident (and ruin your view).

 

[O L Leigh]

The way the seats are bolted to the side/bottom of the train doesn't seem that complicated and I suspect that if there was a serious collision the seats would in fact shear off and come away.

I don't believe that was a factor in either the Southall or Ladbroke Grove crashes, both of which were very serious collisions, so I would conclude that the fixings are strong enough for this not to be a problem.

O L Leigh

 

[Ticket Man]

One problem with these increased capacity trains is passenger comfort, while I’m sure southeastern were singing and dancing when they took delivery of the 376's, they are awful trains to travel on each day and make what is already a slow commute from Kent unbearable. The seats are uncomfortable, they irritate you with the non stop announcements, in the summer you boil on the busy services and in the winter you freeze to death on the quite ones and unless you live in Dartford, in the rush hours you will never get a seat on one and find yourself bending into all manor of positions to perch yourself on one of those stupid lean pads located near the doors. If I see one I’ll wait for the next 466 to turn up. Plus I saw an unfortunate pregnant lady wet herself on one once.

I realise that increased capacity is needed on these busy lines but herding people like cattle surely is not the answer!

Rant over.

 

[gordonthemoron]

fold up/down seats like in DB double deckers

 

[stut]

I can definitely see the value of increasing the density in some trains. The alterations that SWT did to their 455s were well researched and carried
out.

However, as a commuter... I can see the value of these things on short, inner-urban services, but, for any journey of more than, say, 15 minutes,
it's pushing it. Really, it's approaching a problem from the wrong angle.

To provide a corrolary - I did, a while back, some consultancy work for a large company wanting to improve its call handling. There was one manager
there really pushing an idea that they wanted me to implement: having a 'jukebox' mode on the call waiting music, so that the customer can choose
what they listen to while they're on hold to get through, as there'd been so many complaints about listening to the same tune over and over. I
suggested, as one of their customers, that it would be far better to spend the money on decreasing the wait times (which is what they did, in the
end).

On very short inner-urban hops, fine. Otherwise, no. If it's that crowded, spend the money on longer trains and better frequency. Yes, I know it's
not the easy option.

 

[jon0844]

Hey, I think you might be on to something; jukeboxes on trains...



(We sort of have them already, namely chavs with music on speaker - except it's not so easy to get them to play the music you want)

 

[stut]

I know, there was a bunch of kids on an evening train down from Peterborough at the weekend with one of those. They kept flicking through songs, but didn't stop on the ones I liked - and not on the one whose name I've been trying to find out for ages. Most annoying.

(I can actually see why so many kids enjoy this. Travelling is so boring at that age, and music out loud is much more sociable than earphones. It's just the selfishness of it that's the problem. Maybe we should have 'noisy' carriages instead of quiet ones!)

 

[jon0844]

It's called the first class compartment on a weekend, aka chav class.

Anyone with a genuine first class ticket is wisely advised to upgrade to standard.

 

[O L Leigh]

What you've got to do is to get out there and experience trains during the morning and evening rush, see what configurations are already in use and, crucially, how people actually use them. Most of the folk on here will have an opinion about certain things, but that's not really what you want if you're going to come up with a successful design. However, what we can do is tell you what services you should experience and what types of rolling stock to look out for.

I still think your idea is good, even if I'm dubious about it's practical application. It's only very recently that the railway has started to consider other seating configurations instead of the age-old "fill it full of seats" 3+2 arrangement that is actually quite inefficient.

O L Leigh

 

[chic]

Hi,I commute daily using strathclyde electric services and it was an eye opener seeing the class 380 mock-up as it uses seating far better than the current 334 units.The differences are tip up seats near the disabled toilet, all 2+2 seating, some seats are airline style back to back instead of having seats facing each other in a group of 4 all the way. It'll certainly offer more seats. how that works out will be interesting.

Hopefully they'll have some luggage capacity too as if you get on a 318 or 334 that has connected with a flight from prestwick airport, the doorways can be festooned with bags, cases and other rubbish.

3+2 on the 320 and 318's is a pain as people's backsides are bigger than the seats and the very idea of taking the squeeze to get in the middle of the 3 is a no-no for me and nearly anyone bigger than 5' 8" or so.

Strangely the 314 with their low back seats actually give a better chance of a seat and have wider areas for standing around the doorways than the 318's and 320's.

If you're standing on a 334, the 'idiot button' in the middle of the doors exterior makes said idiots at the station you are getting off at, go up to press the button and get in the way of passengers getting off the train.

Good design is needed to improve the passenger experience, but the trains I use often run longer distances further than my commuter hop, so there has to be comprimises between those travelling to work and the end to end service.

 

[delt1c]

A train where the configuration can be changed for peak hours and of peak, a good theory but cant see it being practical in the real world. To many problems.
Moveable seats, are there going to be electric motors to change the configuration. If so then there is the added weight of the mechanisms that has to be carried around in the train and therefore more power consumed. Then there is build cost, more expensive to build, who is going to pay for this, ultimately the passenger, so the commuter pays more to travel in a more crowded train.
Next problem comes when the mechanism fails, another item which can result in a cancelled train.
If you want to improve train capacity then look at lengthening platforms to accommodate longer trains and / or where possible double deck trains, but please don’t try to squeeze more people into the existing space. Remember non gangwayed compartments 12 seated and up to 10 standing . Give us progression where we get more space not regression where will get less.
There are some things that could be done using existing layouts, for me the ultimate crowd mover is the 315, seats facing so easy to get in and out of seats, low back seats , again allow easy movement within the coach, wide doors so plenty of standing space, coach not to long so not to difficult to get to the doors, unlike Networkers which being longer but still only have 2 doors make it difficult on crowded trains to get to the doors to alight.
Seating would be better if it were 2+2 . They may not be to everyone’s liking but they do exactly what they are designed to do nearly 30 years old.
Outer suburban the 317/6 configuration works well for the same reasons but with more comfortable seats for the longer journey.
Compare the passenger movement within a 317/6 with facing seating against a 321 with airline and facing seating, the 317 even in crowded rush hour allows easier movement to seats and from a passenger view point feels roomier. One improvement for capacity could be more standing area adjacent to the doors, some people prefer to stand even when seats are available.
If you want to see how quick these units load and unload spend a morning at Tottenham hale during the peak, it will surprise you see the passengers numbers which alight from these units and how quickly it is performed.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm sure I've seen video of Japanese trains with airline-seating that is moved, by motors to face forward every time. Not quite the same, but shows what can be done.

 

[90019]

I'm sure I've seen video of Japanese trains with airline-seating that is moved, by motors to face forward every time. Not quite the same, but shows what can be done.

On some CityRail trains in Sydney, you can flip over the seat back to reverse the direction of the seat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CityRail-R-Set-int-lower.jpg

 

[jon0844]

I saw the clever flipping of the seat backs on the Hong Kong ferry - so you could face the direction of travel.

 

[87015]

On some CityRail trains in Sydney, you can flip over the seat back to reverse the direction of the seat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CityRail-R-Set-int-lower.jpg

Pretty common on I/C stock on the continent aswell. Top idea. Presumably put in the too difficult pile over here.

 

[duggie_1001]

The help and guidance you've given is second to none!! It's really helpful with formulating my research!!

I am planning on doing a simple mechanical system. It would not involve motors! It is going to be designed for speed and optimum use without failure.

Once i have formulated my design spec, and outlined my proposal i am intending to get out there and onto the busy services before my concept stage begins! I would be interested in posting some of my initial concepts onto here and getting an opinion concensus!

If all else fails i'll go for this method

 

[jopsuk]

On some CityRail trains in Sydney, you can flip over the seat back to reverse the direction of the seat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CityRail-R-Set-int-lower.jpg

Didn't some early railbus/Pacers have flip over seat backs (much simpler mechanisms)?

Now this (the Japanese trains I was referring to) is clever/horrendously overengineered. That's on 240km/h, 817 seat double deckers (that can be doubled up)- and still they sometimes have standing passengers!

 

[yorksrob]

I honestly don't think there's a problem with 3+2 seating as long as the seats are facing. This makes it possible to get in to the middle one and if they are far apart enough provides inter-knee standing space. Admittedly this worked better when every seating bay had it's own door but the class 333's seem to be a really well laid out modern train in this respect in that the 3's are mainly facing even though most of the 2's are mainly airline. My personal view is that large areas of empty space for standing (greater than the width of the standard set of double doors) should be restricted to very short distance trains - shorter than the majority of commuter routes on the network.

Also, there should be more perch cushions and flip down seats in vestibules etc for inter-city as well as commuter routes.

 

[thelem]

Something like the flipable seat backs as shown in the above picture would be workable at a terminus. There are already cleaning staff to pick up coffee cups, papers etc, and it wouldn't take them much longer to flip the seats as they walked past. The issue would be that unless you locked the train between journeys (and added 10 minutes or so to turn around times) you would have to work around passengers in the train - people for the return journey will be waiting on the platform before the inbound train arrives.

On the video above the work around that by closing the train with a rope across the door (presumably so passengers can still get out if needed, but know they are not meant to get on).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
3+2 depends on the size of the passengers in question, but you don't need to be very wide before it becomes uncomfortable and embarassing. I much prefer wide-aisle 2+2 (i.e. the same seats as a 3+2 configuration, but without the middle seat). That should have higher ultimate capacity too, since there will be more space for standing.

 

[jon0844]

People are generally courteous and compliant in Japan - so I doubt the cute sign and bit of string would work here.

In fact, if the seats can be unlocked by passengers then it would also be a no no in this fair country where people can't be trusted not to abuse everything in front of them.

It would be easier to have all seats facing one way then have a crane pick up and turn around each carriage here.