Requirements for Universal Route Knowledge

[jopsuk]

On the road network, anyone with an appropriate licence can drive anywhere. On the railway, drivers must have route knowledge and specific traction knowledge, which are highly restrictive, reduce flexibility and are very expensive to maintain. What would be required to enable drivers to have the ability to go anywhere on any class on the network safely?

motor vehicles are driven on sight. You are expected to be able to stop your vehicle safely in the distance you can see (many drivers ignore this, and this is why "excessive speed" can be major contributing factor in a collision even where a driver has not been, legally speaking, speeding)
Trains are not driven on sight, drivers must know the location of speed restrictions, stations etc and start slowing down for them well before they see them. Some railways elsewhere sign and signal differently and do function a bit more "on sight"

 

[Bald Rick]

But I’m sure that even if they did have universal route knowledge or traction knowledge, the new TOC/FOC would probably need to spend time training them to make sure that they were trained in accordance with their company policies

One of my very best driver friends moved TOCs, both operating the same rolling stock. He still had to be assessed with the new TOC for their rolling stock, for example their different policies for fault finding etc. Then there’s the route card of course...

 

[DaveTM]

There are an awful lot of posts on this thread that make the assumption that the majority of a driver's required route knowledge is to do with speeds and signals and station location. Whilst it is true that S/S/S are the part of my route knowledge that I use most on a day to day basis, there is a much much much greater amount of knowledge that I should know but which I don't use regularly. It is a bit like assuming a flight attendant's knowledge amounts to knowing how to serve cra*py meals with cheap wine in plastic cups, and how to operate the credit card machine. In reality they know an awful lot more that one day may save passengers' lives.

Some random examples:

(1) "Driver, I have an indication that a user has left the gates open at Vale Wood occupational crossing. I need you to proceed at caution over that crossing and report back to me afterwards whether the gates are closed" - If I don't know which of the several crossings in the next signal section is called "Vale Wood", I could spend 10 extra minutes cruising along slowly in the fog, and the report is going to be useless.
(2) Arriving at a station I find the Selective Door Opening system has failed, so I have to manually choose how many carriages to release. Now, was it 7 or 8?
(3) I'm in Littlehampton Station and I've been told I need to take my train into the depot. As a driver with route knowledge, I know to get the platform staff to radio ahead to the depot shunter to find out which siding my train is going to and how far down, because if I stop to ask at the point where the shunter stands, then my 3 car unit will end up on a gap in the 3rd rail and the entire depot will be out of action until someone sends another train down to push my now dead unit back onto the juice.
(4) "This is an emergency call ... I need a line block between X and Y. My Conductor will meet emergency services at Z."
(5) I've hit a car at a crossing and my cab is smashed up. I need to make an emergency call to the signaller, but the GSM-R radio is dead. I turn on my mobile phone and dig the PON out of my bag for the list of phone numbers, but exactly which signal box covers this area? This example is recent history, not hypothetical by the way...

Some of these can be mitigated by a sufficiently complex "Universal Route Knowledge" system, but bear in mind that (2) above is a scenario that results from the failure of such a "sufficiently complex" system...

 

[MarkyT]

Here in the Netherlands, drivers need to learn their routes. But I don't believe they have books as in Germany with all information, but I am not a driver so I could be wrong. Routing is derived from the speeds the signals show, so if for example if it shows a maximum speed of 60 km/h, a driver should know that at that location the train is taking a diverging route.

This Dutch driver (a well-known YouTuber) didn't seem to know his way to the yard very well!:

 

[MisterT]

Just to confirm: as a driver in the Netherlands, we have to learn the routes that we drive and have a formal test for every stretch on the network before we are allowed to run on it, but compared to the UK-style of knowledge it's very basic information (stations and other places inbetween, points of interest like locations of signals without a clear line-of-sight, line speeds, points, local regulations (where applicable), braking points, etc).
We are, however, working on a DAS system that should become available later this year/early next year that has all necessary knowledge about the routes integrated into the display, which basically means that we can do away with the formal procedure of route knowledge.
It will be interesting to see how long it will take to formally approve that system instead of route knowledge (so just like Germany: a driver needs route knowledge for everyday use, but is allowed to drive a train with the EBuLa system on other routes with some speed restrictions).

 

[harz99]

How long is that period?

Given that post HS2 you will be able to travel most of the length of England in about an hour (London to vicinity of Wigan).
If the HSL system grows further it could become an issue.

Really "most", you have a strange idea of the length of England! In railway terms there's a large chunk from Wigan to the Scottish Border north of Carlisle to consider, and an even larger chunk from Paddington to Penzance on top of that. Even if you just take HS1 and HS2 together in their proposed entirety within England, you still leave a chunk of distance uncovered, and that would take multiples of an hour not a single hour.

 

[HSTEd]

In railway terms there's a large chunk from Wigan to the Scottish Border north of Carlisle to consider, and an even larger chunk from Paddington to Penzance on top of that.

Is Penzance to Paddington length or is it width?
I'd argue it was the latter.

 

[Irascible]

There are an awful lot of posts on this thread that make the assumption that the majority of a driver's required route knowledge is to do with speeds and signals and station location. Whilst it is true that S/S/S are the part of my route knowledge that I use most on a day to day basis, there is a much much much greater amount of knowledge that I should know but which I don't use regularly. It is a bit like assuming a flight attendant's knowledge amounts to knowing how to serve cra*py meals with cheap wine in plastic cups, and how to operate the credit card machine. In reality they know an awful lot more that one day may save passengers' lives.

Some random examples:

(1) "Driver, I have an indication that a user has left the gates open at Vale Wood occupational crossing. I need you to proceed at caution over that crossing and report back to me afterwards whether the gates are closed" - If I don't know which of the several crossings in the next signal section is called "Vale Wood", I could spend 10 extra minutes cruising along slowly in the fog, and the report is going to be useless.
(2) Arriving at a station I find the Selective Door Opening system has failed, so I have to manually choose how many carriages to release. Now, was it 7 or 8?
(3) I'm in Littlehampton Station and I've been told I need to take my train into the depot. As a driver with route knowledge, I know to get the platform staff to radio ahead to the depot shunter to find out which siding my train is going to and how far down, because if I stop to ask at the point where the shunter stands, then my 3 car unit will end up on a gap in the 3rd rail and the entire depot will be out of action until someone sends another train down to push my now dead unit back onto the juice.
(4) "This is an emergency call ... I need a line block between X and Y. My Conductor will meet emergency services at Z."
(5) I've hit a car at a crossing and my cab is smashed up. I need to make an emergency call to the signaller, but the GSM-R radio is dead. I turn on my mobile phone and dig the PON out of my bag for the list of phone numbers, but exactly which signal box covers this area? This example is recent history, not hypothetical by the way...

Some of these can be mitigated by a sufficiently complex "Universal Route Knowledge" system, but bear in mind that (2) above is a scenario that results from the failure of such a "sufficiently complex" system...

2 could be mitigated by a sufficiently thorough system, given ( in the context of a journey ) infrastructure and consist lengths are both known fixed quantities, ( 3 also ) and if there's sufficiently detailed programmed route knowledge on board the train to let any driver control it it would be enough that you might as well let it drive itself *normally* - but out of bounds stuff like 1 and 4 and somewhat 5 ( a decent knowledgebase on the train would hopefully tell you which box it is too ) is why we pay people to manage public transport for us. Pilots and presumably bus drivers are having the same fight to make people aware why they and their training are absolutely necessary.

 

[harz99]

Is Penzance to Paddington length or is it width?
I'd argue it was the latter.

Okay then, subsitute Victoria to Eastbourne for Paddington to Penzance, then add the north of Wigan to Scottish Border part and you still have very nearly twice the length of your "London to the vicinity of Wigan", so still not most of the length of England...

 

[D6975]

Okay then, subsitute Victoria to Eastbourne for Paddington to Penzance, then add the north of Wigan to Scottish Border part and you still have very nearly twice the length of your "London to the vicinity of Wigan", so still not most of the length of England...

Vic-Eastbourne approx. 66 miles

Wigan-Border approx. 114 miles.

Total of these 2, approx. 180 miles.

Euston-Wigan approx. 194 miles

Since when has 180 miles been nearly twice 194 miles?

 

[class ep-09]

Indeed. In the specific example of DB in Germany, some of the major differences that allow for reduced reliance on rote remembrance are:

1. Speed signalling.
2. Stricter vigilance control and train protection systems (such as near-complete use of PZB, which includes controls on train speed approaching signals at danger and basic speed supervision regardless of signal aspect, and the requirement for the use of continuous train protection and in-cab signalling such as LZB where line speed exceeds 160 km/h).
3. Greater provision of lineside signage, notably including warning boards for all reductions in line speed, and 'mileposts' (referred to as hectometer boards) every 200 metres.
4. Provision of route information in a format similar to sectional appendices (showing distances, line speeds, stations, junctions, tunnels, etc), initially in the form of bound books but increasingly since 1999 in an electronic format that integrates the timetable for that specific train.

Naturally none of this removes the need for a driver to have a basic familiarity with the route, especially when making passenger calls, but it does allow for a workable level of familiarity to be obtained more quickly and retained for longer.

Perfect summary.

That is why , drivers of many freight operating companies can travel across a country in many cases in other countries.
Quite ofter their shifts are 12 hours so they can do quite long distances.

 

[adc82140]

A couple of thoughts.

Firstly, a large percentage of motor vehicle accidents are caused by driver error, where the driver misjudge the road or conditions. When was the last rail accident caused by driver error in the same way?

A book in the cab doesn't mean no prior knowledge. My GP has a shelf full of books he refers to, but he still had to go to medical school and pass his exams.

 

[Bald Rick]

Firstly, a large percentage of motor vehicle accidents are caused by driver error, where the driver misjudge the road or conditions. When was the last rail accident caused by driver error in the same way?

I’d say the derailment at Crown Point the other week. More spectacularly, our friend at Neville Hill.

 

[harz99]

Vic-Eastbourne approx. 66 miles

Wigan-Border approx. 114 miles.

Total of these 2, approx. 180 miles.

Euston-Wigan approx. 194 miles

Since when has 180 miles been nearly twice 194 miles?

Sorry, didn't express myself very well, i meant the Vic/Eastbourne and Wigan/Border added to the original Euston/Wigan mileage is very nearly twice the original (194) miles on their own...

 

[HSTEd]

Sorry, didn't express myself very well, i meant the Vic/Eastbourne and Wigan/Border added to the original Euston/Wigan mileage is very nearly twice the original (194) miles on their own...

Since the definition of most is more than half - on those numbers my statement is still technically correct.

And as anyone who has watched Futurama will know, technically correct is the best kind of correct

 

[Horizon22]

I think a lot of the points in this thread evidence that without complete automation and abandonment of the driver grade, this will be impossible. Trains are driven by drivers who are human and are subject to knowledge fade, fatigue and fair working practices (limiting availability of route refreshes).

 

[Watershed]

A driver is only allowed (if I remember rightly) 3 hours continuous driving before requiring a PNB (personal needs break).

I'm sure there is RSSB and other guidance on the matter. But the limit on continuous driving is not 3 hours, certainly for some TOCs.

London-based LNER drivers do not sign the ECML north of Newcastle for that reason, as they would never be able to go to Berwick/Edinburgh and back in one shift. In operational terms, there would be no reason for them even to consider learning the route from Newcastle-Edinburgh.

If the driver purely did "driving" duties (i.e. another driver did prepare and dispose duties) then would probably just about work, on those services nearer 4 hours rather than 4h30.

However, as you say, it doesn't make a lot of sense to include route knowledge that far north when you inherently need a depot (or two) at the northern end.

There are, of course, places like Wick where there are local agreements in place because strictly applying the normal limits would severely constrain the timetable and/or productivity of the relevant depots.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There’s a well worn joke among old BR railwaymen that Saltley crews signed the entire country.

 

[Flange Squeal]

There’s a well worn joke among old BR railwaymen that Saltley crews signed the entire country.

The 'coast to coast/found everywhere' half always made sense to me as, being in the middle of the country, it seemed logical they'd sign routes radiating out in all directions. The latter bit about their, errr, 'excretion habit' I've always found curious though. Were they deemed to be taking work away from other depots because of their route cards?

 

[Jozhua]

I just don't think it's that much of an issue to be honest. Most drivers drive the same routes with the same trains 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. The labour costs of some route familiarity or vehicle training here and there are probably not that significant in the scheme of things. Reducing the need for vehicle-specific training is reduced by simplifying rolling stock. This should be achieved by planning-ahead and making sure that rolling stock renewal simplifies the rolling stock being run by specific TOCs/Regions. I'm sure one of the issues Northern had in 2018 was the weird mix of clapped out Pacer/Mk3 MU's and cast-offs. Another benefit of reducing the number of different classes is simplifying maintenance and diagrams.

I think without a more complete strategy on electrification and long term patterns, especially post-HS2, rolling stock could continue to be a bit of a mess. So it's something worth considering. Especially if the Treasury grasps their collective pearls anytime someone utters the terrifying statement "electrification"

Getting rid of drivers and having an automated train network.

Possibly, would be a very costly and difficult engineering challenge, but I think we may see some areas of the network become automated over coming years. I believe Thameslink and HS1 has in-cab signalling, with Crossrail also having it when that comes online. So those systems are probably closest to having the capabilities to be automated.

motor vehicles are driven on sight. You are expected to be able to stop your vehicle safely in the distance you can see (many drivers ignore this, and this is why "excessive speed" can be major contributing factor in a collision even where a driver has not been, legally speaking, speeding)
Trains are not driven on sight, drivers must know the location of speed restrictions, stations etc and start slowing down for them well before they see them. Some railways elsewhere sign and signal differently and do function a bit more "on sight"

I think this is the key issue. ^ Rail is a very different beast to road.

 

[LAX54]

There’s a well worn joke among old BR railwaymen that Saltley crews signed the entire country.

SALTLEY SEAGULLS still have a badge somewhere, that a Driver gave me.

 

[MrEd]

I'm sure there is RSSB and other guidance on the matter. But the limit on continuous driving is not 3 hours, certainly for some TOCs.


If the driver purely did "driving" duties (i.e. another driver did prepare and dispose duties) then would probably just about work, on those services nearer 4 hours rather than 4h30.

However, as you say, it doesn't make a lot of sense to include route knowledge that far north when you inherently need a depot (or two) at the northern end.

There are, of course, places like Wick where there are local agreements in place because strictly applying the normal limits would severely constrain the timetable and/or productivity of the relevant depots.

Agreed, I think that ‘rural depots’ like Wick have different rules on shift length which have been agreed by the unions. I think Kyle, Mallaig, Fort William, Oban, possibly even Inverness go by these modified rules, as otherwise productivity in shifts would be impossible.

There may be some depots in England and Wales which follow these modified ‘rural’ rules (Machynlleth, Penzance?) but I can’t be sure of any off the top of my head.

 

[Class 170101]

Universal route knowledge would be impossible without lodging turns and I imagine that carries its own risks. I don't know about other foum members but I always sleep better in my own bed compared to a hotel one.

 

[HSTEd]

Universal route knowledge would be impossible without lodging turns and I imagine that carries its own risks. I don't know about other foum members but I always sleep better in my own bed compared to a hotel one.

Well given the extraordinarily high "price" of staff per hour of actual driving, I've got to imagine extreme measures might be justifiable if it allows a reduction in staff numbers
Even to the point of flying drivers around in AW609 if it came down to it.

 

[DorkingMain]

Well given the extraordinarily high "price" of staff per hour of actual driving, I've got to imagine extreme measures might be justifiable if it allows a reduction in staff numbers
Even to the point of flying drivers around in AW609 if it came down to it.

If anything it would increase staffing hours, because of the amount of time crew would end up learning routes they had no use for.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed, I think that ‘rural depots’ like Wick have different rules on shift length which have been agreed by the unions. I think Kyle, Mallaig, Fort William, Oban, possibly even Inverness go by these modified rules, as otherwise productivity in shifts would be impossible.

There may be some depots in England and Wales which follow these modified ‘rural’ rules (Machynlleth, Penzance?) but I can’t be sure of any off the top of my head.

Pretty much every drivers depot has different arrangements on one or more of maximum turn length, maximum time between rest periods, rest day working priority, maximum time rostered turns can be varied, various shift premiums, leave arrangements, etc.