Requirements for Universal Route Knowledge

[ExRes]

Yes I am, sorry

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/547c8fc940f0b6024100015f/R162013_130916_Stafford.pdf

I'm sorry as well, one example from eight years ago which was down to total stupidity by those involved in it, a loco that shouldn't have been in service along with a driver who totally disregarded virtually every professional driving rule, hardly a case of insufficient route knowledge

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You'd expect ETCS to radically standardise operating techniques, with reducing regional exceptions as it rolls out further.
Will be interesting to see how the railway operates HS2, with trains running through to (eventually) many more parts of the national network that today's WCML.

Has the Cambrian experience taught us anything about that?
I rather get the impression it has been kept as an isolated technical exclave without any skills migration to the rest of the network, but I may well be wrong.
Are Cambrian signallers/drivers/installers in high demand on the digital railway rollout?

 

[daveswest]

I thought ROG have already fine tuned this theory ??

 

[class ep-09]

I don't think they have zero route knowledge, the few European drivers I've spoken to before still have fairly specific route knowledge and don't tend to work off route. For example NS International high speed drivers sign Thalys and Eurostar e320 and work Amsterdam to Brussels with a few diversionary routes via The Hague and the classic route.

Depots tend to have their own routes over which their crew work and they do not need to know the routes that much to work them.

Working in Germany many years ago I spoke to drivers from Germany and Poland ( my job involved travelling between these two quite often ) and they only had to do few day and night runs to familiarise .

The rest was down to signalling and information given in a book / sheet that had the timetable of a particular train, almost like schedule(s) card book, that was called “crew timetable “.

In addition to the “stopping” stations arrival / departure time , there would be stations, where they did not stop with passing time .

That schedule would also tell all speeds , and where they apply ( hectometre / kilometre posts ) .

I was also told that, they could drive any route in emergency , providing that they would not go faster than ( I think 25mph ~ 40km/h) .

They could do that as the signalling was this same everywhere, it had this same meaning , and the only thing that could be “thrown at you” was, that you would be required to be crossed over from one track to another , and default speed ( lowest ) was 25mph .

Their drivers would also not be penalised for “wrong routing “ as the signals would not tell you , which way you were going before it was too late .

 

[MissPWay]

I'm sorry as well, one example from eight years ago which was down to total stupidity by those involved in it, a loco that shouldn't have been in service along with a driver who totally disregarded virtually every professional driving rule, hardly a case of insufficient route knowledge

Anything else would be from my own meandering personal experience, which I doubt you would find acceptable either.

I thought ROG have already fine tuned this theory ??

 

[biko]

I am not sure that speed signalling entirely dispenses with the requirement for route knowledge entirely - could one of our mainland European members comment?

Here in the Netherlands, drivers need to learn their routes. But I don't believe they have books as in Germany with all information, but I am not a driver so I could be wrong. Routing is derived from the speeds the signals show, so if for example if it shows a maximum speed of 60 km/h, a driver should know that at that location the train is taking a diverging route.

 

[HSTEd]

There is a minimum block length determined by train detection, so that wouldn’t work.

I suppose you might be able to use an extra datagram to give a "metres to stop board" indication in the cab. But that would require additional equipment.

 

[ExRes]

Anything else would be from my own meandering personal experience, which I doubt you would find acceptable either.

I'm quite sure I'd find some reasonable examples that would back up your original comment perfectly acceptable, against that I don't believe throw away unsubstantiated remarks prove anything whatsoever

 

[Bevan Price]

Usually they will know the most common diversions, so for Portsmouth-London will be via Eastleigh and Cobham or Epsom in addition to the main Halsemere-Woking route. It depends how easily it can be worked into a driver's shift. It's also fairly normal that if a big closure is coming up they'll run non-passenger workings as specific route refreshers if they don't maintain the route knowledge ordinarily.

I believe route knowledge is considered valid for 6 months, but I'm not sure if it varies between routes/TOCs and if traction is the same.

Why does route knowledge last for only 6 months on lines where there have been no changes in infrastructure? Surely a period of at least 2 years ought to be feasible and sensible?

 

[Dieseldriver]

Why does route knowledge last for only 6 months on lines where there have been no changes in infrastructure? Surely a period of at least 2 years ought to be feasible and sensible?

Knowledge fade. It’s a lot of information to retain.

 

[Bald Rick]

Knowledge fade. It’s a lot of information to retain.

Indeed. And things can change on the lines.

 

[DorkingMain]

If you have to base it on the position we are in now, either a lot of people in cabs to maintain route knowledge or more route retention paths than could be possible or you universally agree that virtual learning is sufficient.

Indeed.

It's possible to sign quite a large number of routes effectively - when I was at Waterloo we signed a significant proportion of the entire network + I know some Southern and Southeastern drivers at London depots sign quite a number of routes, but they are well-positioned to do so.

Quite often if a depot signs a route that's off the beaten track, they either end up doing refreshers on it constantly, or have to be awkwardly assigned work over the route that's less than efficient to do.

It probably would be possible for Ramsgate drivers to sign the Hayes branch, but getting them to London to do a run to Hayes and back would take most of their day - and is there a realistic need for them to go there? Not really.

There are some situations I've encountered where it would definitely be useful for a depot to sign a diversionary route or a section of line close to one they already work, but training an entire crew depot on a route is no small task.

 

[Llanigraham]

You'd expect ETCS to radically standardise operating techniques, with reducing regional exceptions as it rolls out further.
Will be interesting to see how the railway operates HS2, with trains running through to (eventually) many more parts of the national network that today's WCML.

Has the Cambrian experience taught us anything about that?
I rather get the impression it has been kept as an isolated technical exclave without any skills migration to the rest of the network, but I may well be wrong.
Are Cambrian signallers/drivers/installers in high demand on the digital railway rollout?

Don't know about this country, but some signallers were approached by a railway in the Dubai (??) and I think some did go out there to work, and I believe drivers were also involved.

 

[MrEd]

Given that the length of drivers’ shifts is limited, meaning that there is only so far they can travel from base before needing a break/running out of driving time, there would never be a need for an individual driver to know the entire network. The modern railway, unlike other transport operations, tries to minimise lodging turns wherever possible (as these are very anti-social in many cases and are costly to the TOC), meaning that most drivers will only work to where they can drive to and back legally in an out-and-back turn. Most depots also follow a link structure which means that drivers will only ever need to know the classes of locomotive/unit that they work with in their day-to-day turns in that link. Why would a driver based in Kyle of Lochalsh ever need to know the route between Colchester and Clacton, and why would a driver based in Colchester ever need to know the route between Dingwall and Kyle?

 

[HSTEd]

Given that the length of drivers’ shifts is limited, meaning that there is only so far they can travel from base before needing a break/running out of driving time, there would never be a need for an individual driver to know the entire network. The modern railway, unlike other transport operations, tries to minimise lodging turns wherever possible (as these are very anti-social in many cases and are costly to the TOC), meaning that most drivers will only work to where they can drive to and back legally in an out-and-back turn. Most depots also follow a link structure which means that drivers will only ever need to know the classes of locomotive/unit that they work with in their day-to-day turns in that link. Why would a driver based in Kyle of Lochalsh ever need to know the route between Colchester and Clacton, and why would a driver based in Colchester ever need to know the route between Dingwall and Kyle?

How long is that period?

Given that post HS2 you will be able to travel most of the length of England in about an hour (London to vicinity of Wigan).
If the HSL system grows further it could become an issue.

 

[berwicksfinest]

On the roads you will always have some numbnut decide that after battling along in the outside lane, cut across 3 lanes because thats their exit. Do you really want that on an azuma at 125 ??

 

[HSTEd]

On the roads you will always have some numbnut decide that after battling along in the outside lane, cut across 3 lanes because thats their exit. Do you really want that on an azuma at 125 ??

A driver has no control over anything but speed.
And with ETCS most of that job involves watching numbers on their panel.

 

[berwicksfinest]

A driver has no control over anything but speed.
And with ETCS most of that job involves watching numbers on their panel.

REALLY ?? So for 9 hours today I only controlled speed ??

 

[MrEd]

How long is that period?

Given that post HS2 you will be able to travel most of the length of England in about an hour (London to vicinity of Wigan).
If the HSL system grows further it could become an issue.

A driver is only allowed (if I remember rightly) 3 hours continuous driving before requiring a PNB (personal needs break). For instance, a London-based LNER driver can take an East Coast Main Line express to Edinburgh from King’s Cross as far as Newcastle (approx. 3hr journey) before needing a PNB, and taking a southbound express from Newcastle back to London. Individual drivers’ shifts vary in length, but 8 hours or so is typical for most TOCs.

London-based LNER drivers do not sign the ECML north of Newcastle for that reason, as they would never be able to go to Berwick/Edinburgh and back in one shift. In operational terms, there would be no reason for them even to consider learning the route from Newcastle-Edinburgh.

High-speed lines mean, of course, that greater distances can be covered in less time, which will probably mean a greater number of route miles to learn. That said, high speed lines are probably far easier to learn than conventional ones with their Victorian infrastructure, which results in frequent changes of line speed and gradient, as well as varied junction layouts and signalling. Conventional routes like the ECML north of Newcastle, the WCML north of Lancaster and a lot of main lines in Scotland (think of Edinburgh-Aberdeen or the Highland Main Line) are very route knowledge-heavy for this reason; a purpose-built high speed line with in-cab signalling less so.

 

[HSTEd]

REALLY ?? So for 9 hours today I only controlled speed ??

Well ultimately a train is somewhat constrained to go where the person controlling the point work wants it to go.

The train driver doesn't have anywhere near as much control as, say, the driver of a lorry.

So the 'slewing across three lanes' concept doesn't really transfer well to the railway. The driver doesn't decide what lane the train travels in, the signaller and control room do.

 

[MarkyT]

I suppose you might be able to use an extra datagram to give a "metres to stop board" indication in the cab. But that would require additional equipment.

The ETCS-based ATO on Thameslink apparently now achieves very accurate stopping positions in the core, sufficient, if ever needed, to align with platform edge doors. They weren't sure that this could be done with sufficient precision a decade or more ago which was partly why an alternative non-ETCS CBTC control system was selected for the Crossrail core instead, although that actually also now uses standard Siemens digital track beacons that are identical physically to standard Eurobalises, just configured differently for the application.

 

[WrongRoad]

Are Portsmouth drivers expected to know all the routes to London, including the possible diversions, eg via Woking then Staines and Hounslow?

Can’t say for certain, but I know when there’s engineering work and the Portsmouth trains are diverted around the Byfleet Curve and through Staines Wimbledon Park Drivers do a lot of it.

 

[SynthD]

How long is that period?

Given that post HS2 you will be able to travel most of the length of England in about an hour (London to vicinity of Wigan).
If the HSL system grows further it could become an issue.

They could swap drivers somewhere like Crewe, with one team for south of there and another for the variations to the north.

 

[Bald Rick]

A driver is only allowed (if I remember rightly) 3 hours continuous driving before requiring a PNB (personal needs break).

That varies by TOC

 

[wolfman]

I thought ROG have already fine tuned this theory ??

 

[Llanigraham]

A driver has no control over anything but speed.
And with ETCS most of that job involves watching numbers on their panel.

Even as a lowly signalman and only having spent a half day on the drivers simulator at Machynlleth I can assure you that your last sentence is no where near correct!

 

[matacaster]

Given that the length of drivers’ shifts is limited, meaning that there is only so far they can travel from base before needing a break/running out of driving time, there would never be a need for an individual driver to know the entire network. The modern railway, unlike other transport operations, tries to minimise lodging turns wherever possible (as these are very anti-social in many cases and are costly to the TOC), meaning that most drivers will only work to where they can drive to and back legally in an out-and-back turn. Most depots also follow a link structure which means that drivers will only ever need to know the classes of locomotive/unit that they work with in their day-to-day turns in that link. Why would a driver based in Kyle of Lochalsh ever need to know the route between Colchester and Clacton, and why would a driver based in Colchester ever need to know the route between Dingwall and Kyle?

Dont drivers ever change employer or relocate?

 

[MrEd]

Dont drivers ever change employer or relocate?

Yes, I‘m absolutely sure they do. I know many who have. But I’m sure that even if they did have universal route knowledge or traction knowledge, the new TOC/FOC would probably need to spend time training them to make sure that they were trained in accordance with their company policies (which vary from TOC to TOC, and especially between a TOC and a FOC)- although the rule book is the same, many TOCs/FOCs have different ways of doing things. It’s probably easier just to train the driver on the relevant routes and loco/unit classes along with the company policies as and when he arrives at his new TOC, when it’s known that he’s going to need them.

 

[XAM2175]

Speed signalling not route signalling is the major one, as per places abroad. Traction knowledge is a different kettle of fish and will be required everywhere I'd imagine.

They do it in Europe by worrying about the speed rather than the route and providing a book in the cab with all the information in.

... supplementing other lineside signage like neutral sections, whistle board markers, and even lineside access points would all be required I would have thought. ... Convert the sectional appendices into a digitally consumable format ...

Indeed. In the specific example of DB in Germany, some of the major differences that allow for reduced reliance on rote remembrance are:

1. Speed signalling.
2. Stricter vigilance control and train protection systems (such as near-complete use of PZB, which includes controls on train speed approaching signals at danger and basic speed supervision regardless of signal aspect, and the requirement for the use of continuous train protection and in-cab signalling such as LZB where line speed exceeds 160 km/h).
3. Greater provision of lineside signage, notably including warning boards for all reductions in line speed, and 'mileposts' (referred to as hectometer boards) every 200 metres.
4. Provision of route information in a format similar to sectional appendices (showing distances, line speeds, stations, junctions, tunnels, etc), initially in the form of bound books but increasingly since 1999 in an electronic format that integrates the timetable for that specific train.

Naturally none of this removes the need for a driver to have a basic familiarity with the route, especially when making passenger calls, but it does allow for a workable level of familiarity to be obtained more quickly and retained for longer.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, I‘m absolutely sure they do. I know many who have. But I’m sure that even if they did have universal route knowledge or traction knowledge, the new TOC/FOC would probably need to spend time training them to make sure that they were trained in accordance with their company policies (which vary from TOC to TOC, and especially between a TOC and a FOC)- although the rule book is the same, many TOCs/FOCs have different ways of doing things. It’s probably easier just to train the driver on the relevant routes and loco/unit classes along with the company policies as and when he arrives at his new TOC, when it’s known that he’s going to need them.

Even within companies, if they move depots they have to go through a period of training. One of the volunteers at the NG line I volunteer on has moved to Machy depot from the Valleys Lines and is having to do both ERTMS and Route Learning training (All delayed by Covid!) before being let loose in the front cab.