Request stop justice?

[Bidstonboy]

Just a hypothetical question based on something which happened in the good old days before the black boxes/CCTV.
All stations on the line except the end ones(stops 1 and 9 in this case) are request stops, a passenger gets on at the 2nd stop, refuses to pay or give a valid home address and then refuses to get off at stop 3, a 10 minute walk to stop 4 where he wants to go. He gives the guard a mouth full of abuse and a 3 minute delay occurs. No other passengers on board want any request stops so to make up time the guard tells the driver to pick up only as nobody has a valid ticket for a request stop, stops 4,5,6 are missed, a passenger is at station 7 where the train stops, back on time and the dodger gets off about 6 miles from where he wants to be.

Firstly, is this an example of-
a, Kidnapping.
b, Common sense to get the time back and avoid any delay cost to the company.
or c, Rough Justice, he didn't pay and spoke to the guard like dirt so he got what he deserved.

I know this is just a light hearted (but true) post to start a debate at the start of the year, but do passengers without tickets have the right to stop a delayed train on request stop routes?

 

[island]

I like C myself.

 

[ian959]

No ticket = no ability to request the train to stop therefore I like C.

 

[Qwerty133]

He got what he deserved shame someone got on at stop 7 though.

 

[wintonian]

No ticket = no entitlement to travel - particularly to where they want to go.

Obtain name & address. verify them and have them sent a UPFN for the entire length that they did travel or alternatively have them meet on termination by someone who can write out a MG11.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He got what he deserved shame someone got on at stop 7 though.

They can board through the local door thereby preventing egress.

 

[musicking1306]

If I was the guard then I would have kept the person that was unwilling to pay for the journey to the next available place where BTP could get involved and then the person would have to pay for the whole journey whether the wanted to travel there or not. Teaches people to just buy a valid ticket.

 

[cuccir]

Unless there is a safety reason, then no reason to stop I'd say. In practice, of course, winding the passenger up may be a bad idea!

 

[Deerfold]

No ticket = no entitlement to travel - particularly to where they want to go.

Obtain name & address. verify them and have them sent a UPFN for the entire length that they did travel or alternatively have them meet on termination by someone who can write out a MG11.

On a line with that many request stops there's not likely to be many staff of any type around.

 

[the sniper]

I've known something like this happen recently. A Guard had the same lad twice in one week. The first day the lad wouldn't pay, gave the Guard some lip but wanted a request stop. The Guard informed him that as he wouldn't pay he didn't exist as a customer of the railway, thus they wouldn't stop at his station, and they didn't.

The second time the Guard met him the lad had his ticket ready for inspection.

 

[GadgetMan]

I've known something like this happen recently. A Guard had the same lad twice in one week. The first day the lad wouldn't pay, gave the Guard some lip but wanted a request stop. The Guard informed him that as he wouldn't pay he didn't exist as a customer of the railway, thus they wouldn't stop at his station, and they didn't.

The second time the Guard met him the lad had his ticket ready for inspection.

Exactly, it's all about educating them in a language they'll understand.

156 units are excellent for this type of exercise as the toilet door sometimes conveniently jams shut for a number of stops.

Units with Door deselect are another useful tool when you get the "I'm not paying, but getting off at the next stop anyway brigade". Get them in the rear carriage ensuring no one else in that carriage wants to get off at the next stop. Then deselect it at the next station. Before the idiots realise what's happened it's too late and they've missed their stop. Bonus points if they fall for it at the next stop too . "Are you sure the doors didn't open? You must have failed to press the open button in time"

If I can't get money out of them then the least I can do is inconvenience them and spoil their plans, preferably late at night when there won't be any trains to take them back.

Before anyone mentions 'customer service, or lack of it', fare dodgers are not customers and as far as I'm concerned have no rights on my train.

 

[Bidstonboy]

Just to conclude the tale, as it was on the first service of the day, it also formed the first service in the opposite direction. After the dodger got off on the freezing unmanned platform he waited over an hour for the same unit back. Nearly in tears (and desperate for the 153's heat), the dodger made a grovelling apology and in reply got a stern lecture from the guard and was taken back to where he wanted to go, but was dealt a huge chunk of request stop justice in the form of a 100 minute detour and a lesson in manners!! No delays, police or unnecessary paperwork required,job well done.

 

[185]

The majority of the human race would consider it to be C.

But the train (or BLAME) operating companies desperately worried someone might say something bad about them in a newspaper with a circulation of 28 copies would accuse the staff of A.

I witnessed this stupidity with First Transpennine Express who investigated a female guard who had ejected at Huddersfield a nasty, stuck-up little faredodging madam, who was the daughter of some idiot councillor in Stockport. Despite the verbal abuse, refusal to pay and threats to 'have her sacked' on the train, the stupid train company sent the little monster £50 in travel vouchers - sending totally the wrong message.

 

[Flamingo]

The majority of the human race would consider it to be C.

But the train (or BLAME) operating companies desperately worried someone might say something bad about them in a newspaper with a circulation of 28 copies would accuse the staff of A.

I witnessed this stupidity with First Transpennine Express who investigated a female guard who had ejected at Huddersfield a nasty, stuck-up little faredodging madam, who was the daughter of some idiot councillor in Stockport. Despite the verbal abuse, refusal to pay and threats to 'have her sacked' on the train, the stupid train company sent the little monster £50 in travel vouchers - sending totally the wrong message.

It's a Firstgroup thing... :roll:

 

[BestWestern]

Sadly, the sort of 'teach em a lesson' stuff that might once have been common sense is now likely to do little more than get you sacked.

TOC's are crippled by a paranoid fear of bad publicity, legal action and 'elf and safety regulation, and as such will generally instruct their staff to do nothing other than take people to where they want to go. This applies regardless of whether or not the individual has a ticket, is prepared to pay for their travel, or behaves in an acceptable manner during their (free) journey. Nobody cares a great deal about it, unless the person is threatening/violent/abusive, in which case there is the standard "submit a report" response. I have known Guards who have suffered abuse from non-paying passengers, filed a report with the police, then called them again when they have picked up the very same person later that week, only to find that frankly nobody gives a stuff! Hence the reason that an increasing number of Guards, myself firmly included, are very laid back indeed with their tickets and will focus simply on getting the train to it's destination on time(ish) and with no 'safety incidents' to report. Tickets come last, not through laziness but simply through the wishes of the train companies.

On the subject of pathetically submissive customer service departments, it is ironic how far backwards TOCs will bend to appease people, when they know full well that they have a captive market and seem rather less apologetic when those same customers are rammed into filthy rolling stock. As if to suggest that passengers who have no choice will continue to travel despite high prices and cattle-class trains, but will suddenly stop because they think a member of staff was rude!

 

[Flamingo]

About nine months ago I basically stopped challenging passengers over ticket irregularities as I got fed up dealing with the complaints and "please explains" that accompanied doing this.

I have not have either a passenger complaint or a please explain since doing this. Nobody has come near me to ask why my revenue take has dropped by around 75%, (probably because it is still above the depot average).

As Best Western, has said, managers don't want delays, complaints or paperwork. They don't like guards that cause them. Unions won't back those guards either as they make everybody else look bad.

 

[YorkshireBear]

BestWestern and Flamingo
Find it hard reading your posts without feeling incredibly dissapointed with how society has got. I completely agree with your reasons for not doing this, but i wish that thhose reasons did not exist.

 

[BestWestern]

Believe me, it is even more disappointing for those of us who have to work in that environment! But, such is life...

 

[Flamingo]

It's the world we live in, and the society we have made.

I'm not going to counteract it single-handed, and I honestly believe that my job was being placed at risk by attempting to do so. So, now I do the same as pretty much everybody else.

The TOC has made it quite clear to us that our role is "customer service" (whatever that is), as opposed to enforcement of railway bylaws (although these are in place to promote the comfort, safety and revenue of ALL passengers), so if somebody now says it is their right as a customer to delay the train full of passengers, have a cut-price ride, play their music loud, put their bags or feet on seats depriving other passengers of the use of that seat, or treat the staff as their personal whipping boy, well, we have to go along with this as it's "putting customers first", and we don't know "what kind of day they are having".

Indeed when we come on here, there are a certain proportion of posters who tell us we are lucky to have jobs, and they pay our wages, so how dare we disagree with them on here - they are usually the same ones who complain that the guard was nowhere to be seen, or they never had their ticket checked.

 

[CC 72100]

BestWestern and Flamingo
Find it hard reading your posts without feeling incredibly dissapointed with how society has got. I completely agree with your reasons for not doing this, but i wish that thhose reasons did not exist.

I think many echo this. Couldn't have put it better myself. Shouldn't be like this, but safety and what management say has to take priority.

 

[Flamingo]

I think many echo this. Couldn't have put it better myself. Shouldn't be like this, but safety and what management say has to take priority.

What management say has nothing to do with safety, except in a very short-term interpretation of it. It's got to do with reducing paperwork.

 

[CC 72100]

What management say has nothing to do with safety, except in a very short-term interpretation of it. It's got to do with reducing paperwork.

Sorry, I meant those as separate things. Your personal safety on one hand, the instructions of management on the other. Both deterring actively going after fare evaders etc.

 

[Flamingo]

Sorry, I meant those as separate things. Your personal safety on one hand, the instructions of management on the other. Both deterring actively going after fare evaders etc.

The threat to our personal safety in no small measure comes from certain individuals knowing they can act with impunity. I've called BTP to trains before now, to have them refuse to remove troublemakers and say "Get the train moving, you are causing a delay". And then spent the next twenty minutes taking further abuse.

BTP were right, it was causing a delay. And the people involved know that if they threaten to cause delays, the rail staff will back down as that will cause them a huge amount of individual hassle. So next time they do it again and again.

 

[CC 72100]

The threat to our personal safety in no small measure comes from certain individuals knowing they can act with impunity. I've called BTP to trains before now, to have them refuse to remove troublemakers and say "Get the train moving, you are causing a delay". And then spent the next twenty minutes taking further abuse.

I can well imagine it unfortunately Bet the BTP don't see anywhere near the worst of it whilst they're in attendance, the minute you get moving again and you're on your own, they probably end up being worse than before!

 

[Flamingo]

As a colleague once put it to South Wales police when they said "They are quiet now, it'll cause us hassle to get them all off here, can you not take them on to Cardiff"

"They are quiet because there are 14 of you with stab vests, batons and CS spray. After the train leaves, I'm on my own with a whistle. What do you think will happen to me then?"

 

[island]

I have not have either a passenger complaint or a please explain since doing this. Nobody has come near me to ask why my revenue take has dropped by around 75%, (probably because it is still above the depot average).

But it's hurting you in the pocket too. Pretty unfair.

 

[Flamingo]

But it's hurting you in the pocket too. Pretty unfair.

But I have a lot less stress, and I'm feeling my job is more secure! I'm saving a fortune on whiskey and Valium as well!

 

[sheff1]

The TOC has made it quite clear to us that our role is "customer service" (whatever that is), as opposed to enforcement of railway bylaws (although these are in place to promote the comfort, safety and revenue of ALL passengers), so if somebody now says it is their right as a customer to delay the train full of passengers, have a cut-price ride, play their music loud, put their bags or feet on seats depriving other passengers of the use of that seat, or treat the staff as their personal whipping boy, well, we have to go along with this as it's "putting customers first", and we don't know "what kind of day they are having".

Just a rhetorical question really, but any insights welcome - what would the TOC Customer Services do if fare paying & byelaw complying passengers complained about guards letting the people you describe 'get away' with this behaviour on the grounds that this was making their journey uncomfortable, i.e. they (the TOC) are neither providing the legitimate passenger with 'customer service' nor 'putting (legitimate) customers first' ? I wonder if there is a chance that if enough people threaten to (or actually do) stop using the trains because of such encounters the TOC would change their policy.

 

[455driver]

I wonder if there is a chance that if enough people threaten to (or actually do) stop using the trains because of such encounters the TOC would change their policy.

Yep, they would go DOO!

 

[Flamingo]

Naw, they would just post meaningless memo's telling us we are being lazy (phrased slightly better than that).

 

[Buttsy]

Naw, they would just post meaningless memo's telling us we are being lazy (phrased slightly better than that).

Were you a guard under BR at all? If so, was it any different back then? Was there more respect shown generally?

It's all very depressing, but it is the state of the nation today annoyingly, no-one cares about anyone but themselves now and knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing. :cry: