Reported for using Railcard discount before 10am

[Tedb]

This is plainly silly - the railway sells tickets with validity that it has specified and therefore it is the railway's decision whether a ticket is valid or not.

After speaking to the ToC they said they don’t sell the tickets. In my son’s case it’s TheTrainline who sold the ticket for the journey and they’re a 3rd party. The ToC confirmed they have no association with TheTrainline and I would need to contact TheTrainline regarding the confusing ticket.

 

[Watershed]

After speaking to the ToC they said they don’t sell the tickets. In my son’s case it’s TheTrainline who sold the ticket for the journey and they’re a 3rd party. The ToC confirmed they have no association with TheTrainline and I would need to contact TheTrainline regarding the confusing ticket.

The TOC's claim is wrong and almost deliberately disingenuous. Third party retailers such as Trainline sell tickets as authorised agents of the TOCs. They accordingly bind the TOCs with anything they say.

TOCs need to take it up with the retailer if they're unhappy about a statement that has become a term of the contract, as a result of something the retailer said.

 

[Tedb]

The TOC's claim is wrong and almost deliberately disingenuous. Third party retailers such as Trainline sell tickets as authorised agents of the TOCs. They accordingly bind the TOCs with anything they say.

TOCs need to take it up with the retailer if they're unhappy about a statement that has become a term of the contract, as a result of something the retailer said.

You’ve confirmed my thinking. Both the ToC and Trainline said they’d email me details of the ticketing ownership and process. My inbox is still empty…

 

[Watershed]

You’ve confirmed my thinking. Both the ToC and Trainline said they’d email me details of the ticketing ownership and process. My inbox is still empty…

It's a very complex process which very few people understand, so I can't say I'm surprised you've not had an answer. Either way, it doesn't change the legal position - you are entitled to rely on what a retailer tells you when buying a ticket.

Any such statement you rely upon can become a term of the contract under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act.

 

[Tedb]

It's a very complex process which very few people understand, so I can't say I'm surprised you've not had an answer. Either way, it doesn't change the legal position - you are entitled to rely on what a retailer tells you when buying a ticket.

Any such statement you rely upon can become a term of the contract under section 50 of the Consumer Rights Act.

I’m not surprised either and won’t hold my breath. With the current news about confusing ticketing I’m guessing all ToC customer services teams are busier than usual.

 

[MotCO]

The Telegraph is reporting that Northern Rail is looking to pay compensation to those passengers who were prosecuted for using 16-25 Railcards before 10.00 for a fare of less than £12.

Interestingly

"The Telegraph understands that Department for Transport (DfT) lawyers believe that passengers using railcards should be offered the chance to pay the difference if they make an honest mistake, as the rules state."

Somewhat worringly, the article includes the statement

Most of the 29 different types of railcard are only valid after 10am and are subject to a minimum fare of £12, meaning the discount does not apply to tickets costing less than that.

Passengers may win payouts after rail firm broke its own fare rules

Prosecutions of those using a railcard for discounts on Northern Rail at wrong time of day are being withdrawn

www.telegraph.co.uk

Passengers may win payouts after rail firm broke its own fare rules​

Prosecutions of those using a railcard for discounts on Northern Rail at wrong time of day are being withdrawn


14 October 2024 5:14pm BST


Rail passengers may be in line for compensation after Northern Rail broke its own fare evasion rules to prosecute commuters.
Prosecutions of people accused of wrongfully using a 16-25 Railcard to obtain a discount at the wrong time of day are being withdrawn and previous cases are being reviewed, the company said on Monday.
The announcement comes after The Telegraph discovered that Northern appeared to be breaking a rule whereby passengers with a railcard travelling on the wrong train must be offered the chance to pay back the difference on the spot.
The withdrawal of all live cases comes after the state-owned operator, which serves the north of England, threatened to prosecute a 22-year-old over a £1.90 ticket underpayment but did not allow him to make up the difference first.
Railcards – introduced under British Rail half a century ago – give a discount of one third on the usual ticket price. Most of the 29 different types of railcard are only valid after 10am and are subject to a minimum fare of £12, meaning the discount does not apply to tickets costing less than that.
However, most fare websites and apps do not prevent passengers from buying tickets that contravene these rules.
All train tickets are subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which say that if a passenger buys a time-restricted ticket and then accidentally boards a train on which it is not valid, “you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price ticket that is valid for the train you are using”.

Yet instead of being offered the chance to pay the difference, some passengers were immediately subjected to threats of prosecution.
Between April 1 last year and March 31 this year, Northern’s debt recovery and prosecution unit investigated 57,302 reports of attempted fare evasion. From those cases, 41,922 Penalty Fare Notices of £100 were issued.
After The Telegraph highlighted the discrepancy, Northern announced that it was halting all railcard fare evasion cases until further notice.
A Northern spokesman said: “With regard to recent reported cases involving use of the 16-25 Railcard with fares under £12 before 10am, we are withdrawing any live cases and will also look to review anyone who has been prosecuted previously on this specific issue.
“We are actively engaged with government and industry to simplify fares to help customers. We understand that fares and ticketing across the railway can, at times, be difficult to understand, and we are reviewing our processes for ensuring compliance with ticket and railcard terms and conditions.”



The Telegraph understands that Department for Transport (DfT) lawyers believe that passengers using railcards should be offered the chance to pay the difference if they make an honest mistake, as the rules state.
Sam Williamson, 22, from Glossop in Derbyshire, was threatened with prosecution by Northern over an alleged £1.90 underpayment. The Oxford engineering graduate received a threatening letter from Northern Rail after he took a train from Broadbottom to Manchester on Sept 5.
He had bought an Anytime Day Single but was challenged by a ticket inspector because he was on a train for which a railcard could not be used. The proceedings were dropped on Friday after Mr Williamson’s case was publicised in the media.
He told The Telegraph that Northern’s decision to end prosecutions was “very good news”, adding: “Further prosecutions would have clearly been disproportionate and unnecessary, and Northern has made the right decision to stop them.
“I hope other train companies will also now adopt this position. As for the review of previous prosecutions, we want to see Northern follow through on it with action that provides justice and fair compensation to all the ordinary people who have been targeted.”



Comparisons are likely to be drawn between the dozens of cases now under review and the 75,000 people who are set to have court fines repaid after train companies wrongfully prosecuted them using the controversial and secretive single justice procedure.
A senior rail insider said: “This whole area is a complete mess because it’s grown up over the years, a bit like the single justice procedure. It’s a bit unreasonable that we expect them [ordinary passengers] to know all this stuff.”
Lauren Bowkett, a senior associate from law firm JMW, called Northern’s decision to drop the cases “an unequivocal change of tack”.
She said: “Although each case turns on its own set of facts, the serious risk that many of Northern’s prosecutions could be unlawful has led to reservations regarding the punitive measures implemented by them, resulting in a blanket approach to withdrawing any live cases and reviewing anyone already prosecuted.
“The National Rail Conditions of Travel give two alternative methods of rectification: to charge you the full, undiscounted anytime single fare, or to charge a penalty fare on certain trains and stations.
“In the reported cases, these options have not been considered, therefore raising the question on each separate case whether the prosecutions are lawful.”
A DfT spokesman said: “We expect Northern and all operators to ensure their policy on ticketing is clear and fair for passengers at all times. Northern are reviewing the details of these cases, and will report back to the department.
“It is clear that ticketing is far too complicated, with a labyrinth of different fares and prices, which can be confusing for passengers. That’s why we have committed to the biggest overhaul of our railways in a generation, including simplifying fares to make travelling by train easier.”

 

[John R]

Also now being reported on the BBC too.

Northern agrees to scrap railcard fare prosecutions

The rail operator says it is working with the government to simplify it price structure.

www.bbc.co.uk

Northern agrees to scrap railcard fare prosecutions​

Rail operator Northern is withdrawing all live prosecutions against passengers reported for using railcard discounts for on-peak services where the original fare was below £12.
It follows the case of engineering graduate Sam Williamson, who was reported to the operator’s prosecutions and debt recovery department for using his 16-25 railcard for travel on a service to Manchester.

Mr Williamson faced prosecution for paying £1.90 less than he should have done despite admitting his error and offering to pay a fine or a new fare - prompting widespread criticism of Northern.

The Department for Transport instructed the company to review its ticketing policy to ensure it was clear and fair to passengers and asked it to review the details of such cases.

 

[Hubjhbuy]

Similar cases we see on here are usually because the passenger has selected an outbound train after 10am, and then used the ticket before that time, thus making it invalid. I'm not saying it's the case here, but in many cases that is a conscious decision, because they know it will then return a cheaper price.

"Do we need to read All T&C's we purchase?". Well, in this case, it was incumbent on your son to understand the T&C's of the railcard they had. And we see enough cases on here where people (genuinely) mistakenly purchase an Advance ticket on the day without realising it is only valid on one train to suggest that it does pay to take some degree of attention to what you are buying to avoid getting into the situation that your son is now in. Unfortunately railway ticketing is no longer as simple as it was a generation ago. Whether that is a good thing or not is debatable.

People with this attitude need to understand how ridiculous they're being, he underpaid by 85p !! Secondly train nerds on here don't seem to grasp just how little the average person knows about ticketing rules, and neither should they have to. Look how easy it is in places like the Netherlands with OV chipkaart or in Switzerland with their app based auto ticketing.

 

[jackfifield]

I’m not surprised either and won’t hold my breath. With the current news about confusing ticketing I’m guessing all ToC customer services teams are busier than usual.

Ted I'd really suggest you contact press and your local MP about your son's case. In my reporting I could only see Northern cases but I strongly suspected there would be some from other ToCs. If you'd be willing to contact me I'd be happy to speak with you.

Best wishes.

 

[Tedb]

Ted I'd really suggest you contact press and your local MP about your son's case. In my reporting I could only see Northern cases but I strongly suspected there would be some from other ToCs. If you'd be willing to contact me I'd be happy to speak with you.

Best wishes.

Very happy to speak to you. Will message directly. Thanks

 

[John R]

People with this attitude need to understand how ridiculous they're being, he underpaid by 85p !! Secondly train nerds on here don't seem to grasp just how little the average person knows about ticketing rules, and neither should they have to. Look how easy it is in places like the Netherlands with OV chipkaart or in Switzerland with their app based auto ticketing.

What I'm saying is that with the current complex ticketing situation, and the very public instances of people being tripped up and being prosecuted, it probably is a good idea to take as much care as you can to avoid unwittingly finding yourself at the wrong end of a prosecution. I don't think that's being ridiculous, and I'm certainly not condoning some of the practices we are seeing from the rail industry. They might be unreasonable, but that doesn't mean it isn't better to avoid falling foul of them. You only have to read some of the cases we see here to realise the stress and cost that people are put through.

 

[harz99]

So are all the guards/conductors etc. on trains reporting these passengers for invalid tickets in these particular circumstances under instruction to do so, or do the on train staff just not know the correct way to deal with the problem?

 

[yorkie]

So are all the guards/conductors etc. on trains reporting these passengers for invalid tickets in these particular circumstances under instruction to do so, or do the on train staff just not know the correct way to deal with the problem?

In the case of Northern, it may be that some guards are behaving in this inappropriate manner, but I would be surprised if many - if any - are.

I suspect it's overwhelmingly or exclusively revenue protection inspectors who are doing this.

Some of these revenue inspectors get up to all sorts of misbehaviour; here is just one example:

Off-Peak Ticket in "Peak" Time, Travel Incident Report

Hi there, I travelled to Leeds and took an off-peak day return from Adwick. However, on the return leg, a friend and I decided against taking the 1722 Northern service to Adwick on our return leg because it was effectively full and standing. We decided to check whether we would be able to take...

www.railforums.co.uk

You really couldn't make this sort of thing up; the level of incompetence is staggering. If I behaved in such a way in almost any job I've done, I'd expect to be disciplined or even sacked for it.

 

[Starmill]

My point was, that if the railway company wants to decide a ticket is invalid, it has to be able to prove that, possibly to a court, with reference the terms and conditions under which it was issued

They can’t just unilaterally say that the ticket is invalid because they say so.

They can.

Is there something in particular you're thinking of here? @Dave_D's point to me reads that the conditions of the agreement are binding on both parties once paid for. I thought that was something everyone would agree on?

 

[Tedb]

I posted a couple of weeks ago regarding a situation my son found himself in. I’m pleased to say it has now been resolved.

I just wanted to say thank you for all your comments, replies, advice and messages. The insights people provided were objective and informed, which provided context and reassurance.

Please keep up the good work.

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for reporting back to us. Would you mind telling us the outcome of the case and how it came to be resolved?

 

[jfollows]

This case I think: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/reported-for-using-railcard-discount-before-10am.274823/
Thank you for the feedback and good news that it’s been resolved.

 

[furlong]

I trust that the resolution did not involve paying any money? Just "words of advice" about the way the railway intended the discount to be used and acknowledgement that thetrainline had made a mistake in the way it sold the ticket for which your son should not in any way be penalised? Did they offer you a token amount of compensation for the trouble they put you through?

 

[Tedb]

Thank you for reporting back to us. Would you mind telling us the outcome of the case and how it came to be resolved?

I explored all routes available and was objective (as suggested on this thread) about the case in all communications. No clear reason for why the case is now resolved but I think the fact many people were willing to support the situation was the main factor