Replacement buses

[zoneking]

I hate these but sometimes unavoidable, especially if travelling on a Sunday.

In my experience, they never check tickets on these buses, so anyone wanting to travel on the bus could do so for free.

Also, if travelling from A to C and bus journey is from A to B, then train B to C, it would be cheaper to buy ticket from B to C rather than A to C. What are the fares rules for buses?

 

[IanD]

I hate these but sometimes unavoidable, especially if travelling on a Sunday.

In my experience, they never check tickets on these buses, so anyone wanting to travel on the bus could do so for free.

Also, if travelling from A to C and bus journey is from A to B, then train B to C, it would be cheaper to buy ticket from B to C rather than A to C. What are the fares rules for buses?

You need a ticket(s) for the entire journey. Just because you never have had your ticket checked on a bus doesn't mean you never will. (Of course it may be cheaper to buy from A to B then B to C separately depending on the journey).

 

[bb21]

I don't really understand what you are asking. You are using a service, therefore you pay for it. I don't see how there can be another theory.

 

[zoneking]

Ok, let me explain. Quite a lot of stations have no ticket offices open on a Sunday. Ticket machines may not work, some stations still have no machines. There is no option to buy a ticket on bus. Sometimes buses stop quite a distance from the station. Person gets on bus at A, gets off at B then buys ticket from B to C (rather than A to C). If using a ticket machine at B, the fare would be from B to C, not A to C. If they purchased a ticket at open office counter to C, the default would be from B to C, unless they asked otherwise.

If B has no open ticket office, the person has to buy a ticket from machine, from B to C. In this case there is no option of purchasing the full fare. If the journey was single only, they could in theory purchase a ticket for the backdated journey from guard, but not all trains have guards. How many people do you think would do this, knowing they have a valid ticket for their full (train journey)?

 

[barrykas]

It's also possible that A to C may be cheaper than B to C...particularly if PTEs are involved.

A while back I had cause to take an RRB from Normanton to Wakefield (Kirkgate) for an onward connection to Sheffield.

Upon joining the train at Kirkgate, the conductor would have quite happily issued Wakefield - Sheffield, but I insisted on paying for the full journey.

The reason? It was cheaper to do that than pay from Wakefield!

Current fares:

Normanton - Sheffield Anytime Day Single £9.20
Wakefield - Sheffield Anytime Day Single £9.10 (not Doncaster) / £9.60 (Any Permitted)

 

[elagueesti]

I think the confusion arises because so many people are told by the staff running the buses they they *don't* need a ticket. I have travelled countless times from Weybridge to Walton-on-Thames on a replacement bus and I asked each time whether I needed a ticket. I was told not only that I didn't need one but that the ticket machine was inside the (locked) station.

 

[barrykas]

Reading the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, specifically Condition 60 (reproduced below), I'd say the official stance is that you have to buy a ticket (where possible) before boarding, per Condition 2.

Of course, if the staff at the interchange station are willing to just sell you a ticket from there...

60. Carriage by road vehicles

These Conditions apply to passengers travelling and luggage, articles, animals and cycles conveyed in road vehicles provided by a Train Company or its agents unless it is made clear to you when you buy your ticket that different conditions apply. The term “train” in this context includes any road vehicle owned or operated by a Train Company or on its behalf.

A Train Company may replace a train with a road vehicle at short notice or on a planned basis and your journey time may be extended. The Train Company may refuse to accept some types of luggage, articles, animals and cycles in accordance with Condition 49. The Ticket Seller must make clear if any planned replacements are likely to affect your journey when you buy your ticket, provided the information is available to them. If the replacement is at short notice and you cannot complete your journey because the Train Company is unable to transport your luggage, articles, animals and/or cycles by road vehicle, you will be entitled to compensation in line with Condition 42 as if your train had been cancelled.

 

[notadriver]

Agreed. As I understand it this particular driver is not employed for any rail TOCs but may have done in the past.

Could a person such as station staff working for the TOC could refuse travel to passenger who doesn't hold a valid ticket?

 

[0B00]

Arriva Trains Wales have a number of operators involved in what is known as 'Revenue Concept' mainly in the Cardiff area but as far north as Crewe for some jobs. Basic Single and Returns including Rail Card discounts are sold on board the bus (from the bus ticket machine) with a PERTIS type flat fare for those wishing to travel on a more complex journey.

The bus operator keeps a small (4?)% commission and deducts the balance off the invoice for the supply of the road transport which gains revenue for both ATW and the bus company.

On jobs not involving the above scheme, contrary to comments above, ATW specifically request bus drivers DO make a cursory check of tickets so it would be entirely reasonable for someone refusing to buy a ticket at staffed station to be refused travel. Obviously that would not apply at an un-staffed location.

 

[barrykas]

Given that the NRCoC say that a "road vehicle" operated by, or on behalf of, a TOC is a train for NRCoC purposes, could it follow that the driver of same becomes an "authorised person" for Byelaw purposes?

 

[maniacmartin]

I had an interesting encounter with a replacement bus a few years ago, where RJ's policy bit me.

I travelled by train from an unmanned station to manned station, where I wanted to interchange to a Rail Replacement Bus going to another manned station to catch another train.

Because I travelled from an unmanned station and hadn't yet encountered a conductor, I hadn't yet had an opportunity to buy a ticket. I had allowed the minimum connection time, but the incoming connection was running late. I did arrive in time to catch the RRB, but was denied entry to the bus by station staff as I did not have a ticket, and sent to the ticket office. They refused to hold the bus, which I subsequently missed, adding an hour to my journey. (According to the ticket office clerk, it was my fault for not buying the ticket online in advance...)

I agree that in many cases where RRBs are laid on, revenue is basically written off by the TOC, but when they do decide to enforce it, sometimes little thought is given to connecting passengers who may not have had previous opportunity to buy a ticket. The solution described by 00B0 sounds like a very good solution to this, however in my case, the staff member by the bus being given an Avantix would have sufficed.

 

[maniacmartin]

Station Staff however are employed agents of the company. They are permitted to refuse travel.

Are you saying that I should have delayed my journey to buy a ticket at the interchange, despite allowing the minimum connection time?

 

[bb21]

We are coming back to the issue of whether a passenger who boarded at a station and has had no opportunities to pay has to delay his journey at an interchange station if there are ticket-purchasing facilities there. We know the ATOC view, however we have debated previously whether not purchasing a ticket at such an interchange station constitutes a breach of the Byelaws (specifically in this thread), and did not reach consensus. If it is a breach of the Byelaws then station staff are perfectly entitled to refuse onward travel without a ticket, albeit that it is a very passenger-unfriendly measure.

 

[09065]

Unfortunately the NCoC's are badly worded in this case because it does say

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey
is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to
make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy
an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to
pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your
journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or
Permit to Travel.

If the station staff deem that the time given was reasonably practicable then they could refuse travel. In the case of a rail replacement bus most of the time the rail operators like to use the disclaimer "Allow Extra Time for Your Journey."

I am not saying it is right, especially in the case above where maniacmartin suggests the service was hourly; but the Conditions of Carriage are like the law..... a donkey sometimes.

As it was discussed in previous threads I will try to avoid taking this one on a circle line replacement bus (where the rules might be different)

 

[34D]

I very much doubt that acting as the driver of a rail replacement bus (as opposed to any rail position you may or may not hold) you have the authority to refuse travel to somebody who was not in possession of a ticket.

The contract held between the bus operator and the train operator is a simple one; convey passengers from A to B. There is no onus in the contract for the bus operator to check for valid tickets - at least not in this neck of the woods - and if you were to refuse travel on that basis I would consider it a breach of the bus operators contract.

I also drive rail replacement buses sometimes (including yesterday morning), mainly for Northern and First TPE.

I often do a ticket check, as the Great One RJ does. In addition, the more thorough co-ordinators also check tickets.

If people do not have a ticket, and there is an open booking office or card/cash TVM and ALSO the bus has time to wait for them, I will request they visit those facilities.

Where there are no ticket facilities available, I will inform people that they need to buy one at their destination station.

Where work is emergency, especially if passengers have suffered disruption already, or where I can see that they would buy a ticket and be entitled to delay repay, then I wouldn't usually bother.

My advice to drivers who work for me is generally to not get involved in tickets (beyond saying buy at destination) unless they know what they're doing.

Finally, I think you will find in the T&Cs of most coach/bus companies that the driver has the discretion not to carry people.

 

[09065]

There is a big difference between discretion (for the safety of the drivers and passengers - for example) and refusing to carry someone because they do not have a ticket.

Sending a customer back to the ticket office when they have time would be reasonable, RJ specifically said they would refuse travel which in our office would make us wonder whether his company should be on our list of preferred contractors.