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Replacement bus - should TOCs keep empty seats next to 1ST passengers?

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jon0844

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Why?
I'm quite happy to pay extra for a bigger seat, more leg room, quieter surroundings and generally a free coffee and food, as are other people.
Would you also ban First Class on airlines or elsewhere?
Would you also take this to a logical conclusion and ban "posh" cars?

Yeah, why not. Higher fares for everyone else. Yay!

Imagine if all airlines ditched first class and what impact that would have on economy fares. Then simply apply that to rail, given there are still going to be a number of people buying open first class tickets - mad as it might seem.

Until all businesses and private individuals stop buying them, I say keep first class and help subsidise the other fares. And when you have cheaper deals (advance, weekend upgrades, Gold card upgrades) then that's all extra money for the railway.
 
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trainophile

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I don't think it's a good idea to start dropping people off anywhere on the route on rail replacement. A queue soon builds and it's annoying for others on the bus. It's slightly different if the vehicle is near empty and late at night though.

On the odd occasion I've been on a RRB, the driver has not announced which rail station he has just stopped at, and the station entrance isn't always in view. I got horribly lost in Liverpool once, having scrambled off the bus at the last minute when it dawned on me that it must be Moorfields, but he'd stopped nowhere near the station entrance. People unfamiliar with the route don't necessarily know in which order the stations lie, and if they are not visible from the bus it would be very helpful if an announcement could be made!

On the occasion in question he only pulled up for the briefest of moments, so you really had to know where you were. Luckily another passenger was in the same situation, so we got him to stop again, to let us get off.
 

RJ

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I announce every station call, loud and clear. I actually get a fair amount of positive feedback from passengers because of it.

Serious question - what are the instructions on checking tickets on bus replacement services?

It depends on what the rail operator requests.

I've never had to on TfL replacements and wasn't requested to when I drove the Slough to Windsor replacements.
 
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ACBest

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There's a Stagecoach driver locally who regularly does rail replacement work, and he always makes sure to do announcements, and some journey planning using his phone apps too, as well as actually making conversation with passengers! Some of you on here may have come across him if you've travelled on any EMT rail replacement services.

Truly one of the top rail replacement drivers out there, certainly in this area anyway!

Good customer service like that can turn a laborious rail replacement journey on a bus/coach in to something equal to, or better than the expected train journey, and I think a lot of drivers and companies seem to forget that.
 
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Aictos

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Many drivers are quite happy to drop people off anywhere on route.

But they're not paid nor covered by insurance to drop people off where ever they want to, they're paid to drive a vehicle from A to Z calling at B, C, D etc inbetween and aren't permitted to go off from their booked route.

IF people want services to stop where it benefits them, there's something called taxis that they can use themselves....
 

DelayRepay

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The best RRB journey I ever had was years ago, at night. I can't remember where I was travelling, but I was the only passenger on the coach. The driver asked whether I wanted the radio on and dropped me right outside my front door :)
 

Class20

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As a rail replacement coordinator for two transport companies its interesting to read through this thread and some of the comments that have been made. The replies I make here are the views of myself and are in no way the view of ether company, though they do relate to the way of working each company has in place.

What is outrageous is when coaches only suitable for carrying young school children are used. It is debatable whether 3+2 seating is acceptable on trains but I don't think it should even be legal to use such coaches to carry adults or more fully grown teenagers. The seats clearly simply aren't wide enough.

If the replacement work is planned then the use of any vehicle with 3+2 seating is not normally permitted. Obviously in emergency situations its not always possible to avoid such vehicles and its the same with breakdowns or any other unplanned or unforeseen situations. There are in place certain things that train operators specify when rail replacement services are used, i.e. coaches must have a toilet or there must be a certain amount of seats on each vehicle used etc etc... These requirements varies depending on the train operator.

Serious question - what are the instructions on checking tickets on bus replacement services?

The situation regarding ticket checks is that coordinators are only able to check that passengers have a ticket and instruct any passenger with out one to purchase one before travelling (if ticket facilities are available at the station). We are in no position to sell them or to apply any form of punishment to anyone in violation of the ticketing rules. It's down to the rail operator to undertake any of this and provide any revenue staff to help provide a full ticket service.

Many drivers are quite happy to drop people off anywhere on route.
I don't think it's a good idea to start dropping people off anywhere on the route on rail replacement. A queue soon builds and it's annoying for others on the bus. It's slightly different if the vehicle is near empty and late at night though.

For both companies I work for it's against all rules and regulations to have any driver pick up or drop off any passenger in-between stations. I'm not willing to go into details but I can say for sure that's not allowed in any circumstance.

A few other points made relating to luggage and bikes. I would say that 95% of the vehicles used on rail replacement services in the area I work in are coaches. This, of course, allows luggage and bikes to be carried with some ease. In some areas more use is made of buses and in such cases the amount of space available for luggage and bikes is often non existent. In an emergency situations it can be hard to accommodate people with bikes especially when there is a large amount of luggage to be carried. It just depends on the situation at the time of the emergency.

It must be said that coach drivers have the final say on what goes on their coach. It's up to the driver whether a bike, dog or food and drink can be carried. Some drivers are fine with all, others can be a little more picky.

As for the original question made OLJR,

Do you think that TOCs should guarantee that all 1ST passengers on a replacement bus will have an empty seat next to them and hire as many buses as necessary to provide the required capacity?

The simple answer is no. You would not believe the work the goes into organising rail replacement services. Organising and sourcing the required number of vehicles is a long and complex process which can takes weeks, if not months, to plan and can often be changing right up until a few hours before the replacement service starts.

When a replacement service is put in place all passengers are treated the same regardless of travelling class.
 

radamfi

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If the replacement work is planned then the use of any vehicle with 3+2 seating is not normally permitted. Obviously in emergency situations its not always possible to avoid such vehicles and its the same with breakdowns or any other unplanned or unforeseen situations. There are in place certain things that train operators specify when rail replacement services are used, i.e. coaches must have a toilet or there must be a certain amount of seats on each vehicle used etc etc... These requirements varies depending on the train operator.

How do you explain their regular use by Southern? Have Southern broken the terms of their franchise?
 

Flamingo

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As a rail replacement coordinator for two transport companies its interesting to read through this thread and some of the comments that have been made. The replies I make here are the views of myself and are in no way the view of ether company, though they do relate to the way of working each company has in place.



If the replacement work is planned then the use of any vehicle with 3+2 seating is not normally permitted. Obviously in emergency situations its not always possible to avoid such vehicles and its the same with breakdowns or any other unplanned or unforeseen situations. There are in place certain things that train operators specify when rail replacement services are used, i.e. coaches must have a toilet or there must be a certain amount of seats on each vehicle used etc etc... These requirements varies depending on the train operator.



The situation regarding ticket checks is that coordinators are only able to check that passengers have a ticket and instruct any passenger with out one to purchase one before travelling (if ticket facilities are available at the station). We are in no position to sell them or to apply any form of punishment to anyone in violation of the ticketing rules. It's down to the rail operator to undertake any of this and provide any revenue staff to help provide a full ticket service.




For both companies I work for it's against all rules and regulations to have any driver pick up or drop off any passenger in-between stations. I'm not willing to go into details but I can say for sure that's not allowed in any circumstance.

A few other points made relating to luggage and bikes. I would say that 95% of the vehicles used on rail replacement services in the area I work in are coaches. This, of course, allows luggage and bikes to be carried with some ease. In some areas more use is made of buses and in such cases the amount of space available for luggage and bikes is often non existent. In an emergency situations it can be hard to accommodate people with bikes especially when there is a large amount of luggage to be carried. It just depends on the situation at the time of the emergency.

It must be said that coach drivers have the final say on what goes on their coach. It's up to the driver whether a bike, dog or food and drink can be carried. Some drivers are fine with all, others can be a little more picky.

As for the original question made OLJR,



The simple answer is no. You would not believe the work the goes into organising rail replacement services. Organising and sourcing the required number of vehicles is a long and complex process which can takes weeks, if not months, to plan and can often be changing right up until a few hours before the replacement service starts.

When a replacement service is put in place all passengers are treated the same regardless of travelling class.

Thank you. A very useful and informative post.
 

Class20

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How do you explain their regular use by Southern? Have Southern broken the terms of their franchise?

I believe that rail replacement services for Southern are provided by Go-Ahead since they operate the Southern franchise. In which case their vehicle requirement may be different to that of the two companies I work for and that they may allow 3+2 seated vehicles to be used. Nether of the two rail replacement operators I work for will allow a vehicle with 3+2 seating to be used unless there is an emergency or unplanned situation in place.

I don't think rail replacement services have to much of an impact on franchise terms, if at all any impact.
 
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87015

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How do you explain their regular use by Southern? Have Southern broken the terms of their franchise?
Quite simple they have very very low standards... I've done some 'speccing' of RR (mainly buses for our routes) and such vehicles would probably result in a please explain on the Monday morning. People moan enough about nearly new deckers!

Actually if one of the operators sent something like that out we'd send it straight back to the depot and they wouldn't get paid for it.
 

Parallel

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Surely that's no different from buying a First Class ticket for a two-leg journey, one of which is on a Pacer!

Maybe they should start fitting first class sections to Pacers, with enhanced Pacer facilities... Extra bouncing, extra screeching around corners and a game of "trying to drink your tea from the first class trolley before it spills everywhere" :lol:
 

Qwerty133

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Quite simple they have very very low standards... I've done some 'speccing' of RR (mainly buses for our routes) and such vehicles would probably result in a please explain on the Monday morning. People moan enough about nearly new deckers!

Actually if one of the operators sent something like that out we'd send it straight back to the depot and they wouldn't get paid for it.

Good!
Seriously though I've only been on 3 rail replacement coaches, all unplanned, and coaches.
One of the drivers used his phone to make a personal phone call while driving, another allowed standees on his coach which clearly stated no standing, and the other was due to a complete mess up within the TOCs control.
 

Mugby

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About three or four years ago, the replacement buses for FGW services between Swansea and Cardiff on Sundays were regularly vehicles with 3+2 seating. They were First Group's own vehicles.
 

Welshman

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So if a rrb I had not expected, passes my house, say three miles from the terminal station to which it's going, and it's a substitute for the latest train which would have connected with my last homeward-bound bus from the station, am I in order to claim from the TOC for my taxi-fare back along the route I've just travelled?

Or do I gratefully accept the bus driver's offer to open the door and let me off, delaying him/her by all of a minute or so, get home a bit sooner, and save the TOC/my pocket some money?
 
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notadriver

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No you can't claim your taxi fare back. The bog standard reply is that the train only stops at stations and so does the bus.

Once you let one person off inbetween stations a whole queue starts forming wanting to get off.
 

RJ

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No you can't claim your taxi fare back. The bog standard reply is that the train only stops at stations and so does the bus.

Once you let one person off inbetween stations a whole queue starts forming wanting to get off.

I do a lot of rail replacements in the Greater London area - many people like using them as a free express alternative to the service buses. Kingston to Twickenham is a popular one for people who really want a 281. I make an announcement before departing each stop with a list of stations I'm stopping at - when doing London area replacements, I make a point of stating that I won't set down anywhere between stations stops.

Usually people who can't respect this are the people who are happy to distract the driver whilst they vehicle is moving to request to get off. I don't have any moral objection to telling people the next set down point will be the next scheduled stop however :p
 
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DelayRepay

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A related question: When London Midland put buses on instead of trains between Watford - St Albans Abbey, the buses often continue to St Albans City. Is this for the convenience of passengers, or is it for some other reason (e.g. City Station being an easier location to turn the bus around/park up for a while)?

Last time I used the train service, there was a woman on board who was very unhappy when told it was about a 20 minute walk between the two St Albans stations, because the previous weekend the train had been replaced by a bus which took her to City station.
 

RJ

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A related question: When London Midland put buses on instead of trains between Watford - St Albans Abbey, the buses often continue to St Albans City. Is this for the convenience of passengers, or is it for some other reason (e.g. City Station being an easier location to turn the bus around/park up for a while)?

Last time I used the train service, there was a woman on board who was very unhappy when told it was about a 20 minute walk between the two St Albans stations, because the previous weekend the train had been replaced by a bus which took her to City station.

Possibly to provide better connections into London for those at the St Albans end of the line. I've driven Northern Line replacements from Finchley Road to Canons Park in the past - Golders Green (well Camden Town really) to Edgware was the closed section but it was to provide interchange for the Jubilee which was running. LM replacements also appear at Stanmore from time to time.
 
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muz379

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Which I am sure the rest of the passengers appreciate when they miss the train they were supposed to connect with!

exactly , I have been on a RRB before where the driver thought it would be a good idea to let someone off who asked , guess what every other person on the bus then went and asked meaning we took 6 or 7 unscheduled stops between stations adding even more time onto a journey that was already much longer than I wanted it to be .

I wouldn't mind if It was a quiet RRB with a handful of passengers . But when every man and his dog (literally) want to get off on a packed RRB it gets a bit silly .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or do I gratefully accept the bus driver's offer to open the door and let me off, delaying him/her by all of a minute or so, get home a bit sooner, and save the TOC/my pocket some money?

It might be a bit more than a minute .Depends on if you have luggage stowed in the luggage hold on the coach which the driver then has to get out and help you find .

That can add up when loads of people want to do it between scheduled stops .
 

AlterEgo

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On a slightly related matter... if there's emergency bustitution part way through your journey and you have a large suitcase, which is normally not allowed on rail replacement buses, what are you supposed to do? Pay for your own taxi?

If you paid a fee under the NRCoC for outsize luggage then I'd say it's incumbent on the TOC to find a way to accommodate you and your bag.

If you didn't, for whatever reason, then I'd say you would have to pay for your own taxi.
 

PermitToTravel

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What if your luggage fits within the generous allowances given by the NRCoC, but is large enough that the RRB drivers decide that it cannot sensibly be conveyed?
 

QJ

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What if your luggage fits within the generous allowances given by the NRCoC, but is large enough that the RRB drivers decide that it cannot sensibly be conveyed?

Unfortunate. NRCOC conditions of carriage cover that one and any other reason for not allowing persons, pets (except working dogs - sorry Princess), luggage, cyles, prams, pushchairs etc on rail replacement vehicles (and trains too for that matter).
 
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quarella

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If you paid a fee under the NRCoC for outsize luggage then I'd say it's incumbent on the TOC to find a way to accommodate you and your bag.

If you didn't, for whatever reason, then I'd say you would have to pay for your own taxi.

Item 60 in the NRCoC will answer your question. In simple terms. If your luggage is deemed not be acceptable you are entitled to compensation but the TOC is under not obligation to transport your belongings.
 

RJ

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Item 60 in the NRCoC will answer your question. In simple terms. If your luggage is deemed not be acceptable you are entitled to compensation but the TOC is under not obligation to transport your belongings.

People think otherwise though. I was once told by a cyclist that a rail replacement bus is effectively a train and as such, I should carry her bike.
 

noddingdonkey

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Please explain why that is an unreasonable expectation for the passenger to have, especially if it was an unplanned bustitution rather than a planned blockade.
 
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