"Repeater"(?) signal at Waterloo East

[IanKR]

Attached picture shows signalling at country end of Platform A at Waterloo East. I assume that signal L25CA, facing at right angles to the main signal, is provided so that it is in the driver's sightline while looking at the door monitors? Otherwise, the main signal L25 is clearly visible to the driver when looking forwards?

PS: What does the "CA" suffix stand for?

 

[Muzer]

It's a co-acting signal; that's what CA stands for. As for the reason it's there, I dunno, but I suspect either you're right, or it's actually hard to see the LEDs from close up angles. Still quite an unusual layout.

 

[455driver]

Possible Co Acting, one of the problems with LED signals is that they are very difficult to see when close to them especially if you are at an angle to them.

 

[collexions]

These signals will be renamed TL2213 & TL2213CA in the imminent HL07 stageworks of Thameslink KO2 development.

The 12 car stop board is right beneath the main signal (on the latest scheme plans, though don't see an overt one in the supplied image), hence the CA to provide ease of reading the aspect when sat directly beneath the main signal head.

 

[edwin_m]

There's something similar on Platform 2 at Nottingham where 4 coaches of 23m only just fit with the cab alongside the signal post. That one uses a standard sized LED head, unlike the one pictured which appears to have the smaller LED clusters used in tunnels. I hope the brightness is reduced from standard though!

 

[IanKR]

These signals will be renamed TL2213 & TL2213CA in the imminent HL07 stageworks of Thameslink KO2 development. [...]

Will that include all the current "L" (presumably London Bridge box) signals? I notice that the recently resignalled Southern tracks down from London Bridge are all tagged TL.

 

[ComUtoR]

As already posted its a co acting signal because of the distance of the signal when you have a 12 car. There is also a banner repeater on the DOO monitor bank at new cross.

The reason its there is because of the signal sighting regulations. Part of group standards is the distance a stop mark from the starter signal. Its cheaper than moving the signal and no doubt easier.

12 cars at charing cross stop on the bay platforms and use CD/RA dispatch. We now run 12 car DOO so it was very much required for networker stock stopping there. Not sure is 375's are booked onto that platform.

A fair few new signal gantry's are appearing. I think that if the signal gets renamed then it has to be moved to conform with current group standards. Until then it is permitted because of the standards that existed when it was first installed. Something similar happened at Elephant and Castle. When they renumbered the platform starter on P2 (VS386 ?) it was moved toward blackfriars because of the signal sighting when a unit was stopped on the 8 car DOO monitors.


At least tha'ts what I understand. Plenty of techy RGS guys can provide better information.

 

[83G/84D]

Possible Co Acting, one of the problems with LED signals is that they are very difficult to see when close to them especially if you are at an angle to them.

One at the end of Platform 4 at Penzance as when a 2+8 HST is in there the cab is right up tight to the signal. It proved very difficult for the driver to see the main signal when sat in the driving seat.

Unlike the OP's photo the one at Penzance is on the main signal post albeit at a different angle.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will that include all the current "L" (presumably London Bridge box) signals? I notice that the recently resignalled Southern tracks down from London Bridge are all tagged TL.

TL apparently stands for Three Bridges re-control of London Bridge, and will take place area by area for some time. So the T being added is a sign that the area has been re-controlled.

In a recent thread I think someone initially suggested it might have stood for Thameslink, but it turned out otherwise.

 

[455driver]

One at the end of Platform 4 at Penzance as when a 2+8 HST is in there the cab is right up tight to the signal. It proved very difficult for the driver to see the main signal when sat in the driving seat.

Unlike the OP's photo the one at Penzance is on the main signal post albeit at a different angle.

I only drive trains in England, I don't go into the peoples republic of Kernow!

 

[DarloRich]

One at the end of Platform 4 at Penzance as when a 2+8 HST is in there the cab is right up tight to the signal. It proved very difficult for the driver to see the main signal when sat in the driving seat.

Unlike the OP's photo the one at Penzance is on the main signal post albeit at a different angle.

seek and ye shall receive:

Penzance by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

 

[IanKR]

TL apparently stands for Three Bridges re-control of London Bridge, and will take place area by area for some time. So the T being added is a sign that the area has been re-controlled.

In a recent thread I think someone initially suggested it might have stood for Thameslink, but it turned out otherwise.

Ha! I assumed it was ThamesLink too!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Thanks for your informative replies.

This must be in prep for when 12-car trains (eventually) start to serve that side of Charing Cross. As far as I aware, the longest workings currently serving platforms 1-3 CHX <-> platforms A/B WAE are 10-cars (465/466 combos & 376s). Someone will no doubt confirm/correct this.

 

[Pinza-C55]

A fair few new signal gantry's are appearing. I think that if the signal gets renamed then it has to be moved to conform with current group standards. Until then it is permitted because of the standards that existed when it was first installed. Something similar happened at Elephant and Castle. When they renumbered the platform starter on P2 (VS386 ?) it was moved toward blackfriars because of the signal sighting when a unit was stopped on the 8 car DOO monitors.
At least tha'ts what I understand. Plenty of techy RGS guys can provide better information.

It's known as "Grandfather Rights".

 

[MarkyT]

This is not just a LED specific thing. When a signal of any type is that close to the stopping point its often impossible to see the main signal at all from the normal sitting position of the driver in the cab. Ideally trains stop some 15 to 22m from a signal where visibility is usually excellent, but in platforms that is sometimes not possible, especially at terminals where throat junctions may constrain signal positions and buffers can't be moved. In this case it looks like the distance is no more than 3 or 4 metres. Whilst there are no junction constraints, moving the signal could be difficult on the high narrow viaduct structure, perhaps needing a new platform structure bracketed out from the brick walls. Maintenance access might be difficult too.

There's a RSSB Railway Group Guidance Note document on the subject of Signal
Positioning and Visibility here:
http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_... Signalling/Guidance Notes/GEGN8537 Iss 1.pdf

It's a big document so do a text search for the term "co-acting".

 

[ComUtoR]

This must be in prep for when 12-car trains (eventually) start to serve that side of Charing Cross

12 car Networkers are already in full swing.
376's are 5 car so can only max 10

 

[MarkyT]

Signal positions relative to platforms and junctions often make it difficult to fit existing sized trains on the network when resignalling under today's standards and guidance. Naive ideas for lengthening trains beyond this usually take insufficient account of the extraordinary difficulty and cost moving junctions, widening viaducts, rebuilding major Thames bridges etc that would be necessary and the resultant disruption during construction.

 

[IanKR]

12 car Networkers are already in full swing.

Which lines? Not on the Bexleyheath line, nor, I think, on any of the other Dartford lines. Despite recently lengthened platforms, the longest on the Bexleyheath line are 10 cars - either (2 x 465) + 466 or 2 x 376.

 

[ComUtoR]

I drove one up to Charing Cross myself. Just the other week. My depot has a daily diagram with one on and by the time we get it. It has already been in service.


Taken from the SE website. http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/your-journey/how-busy-is-your-train-/

Via Sidcup
0728 Gravesend to Cannon Street
1721 Cannon Street to Gravesend

Via Grove Park
0717 Sevenoaks to Cannon St
0737 Sevenoaks to Cannon St

Those should be networker stock. There was a few tweets about 12 cars as well but I don't have twitter and they were shared via internal newsletters.

None that I could find via Bexleyheath or Greenwich. There was a thread a while back discussing Se 12 car introduction. With more details about what services will have them. I also have internal bits and bobs that outline route restrictions for running them.

I believe more are planned for December too.

 

[Barn]

There are at least two down AM counterpeak services on the Greenwich line which are 12 cars. The 0902 from my station Maze Hill is 12 car, skips Woolwich Dockyard and 'terminates' at Barnehurst. I'd be surprised if it didn't then go to Cannon Street via Bexleyheath.

 

[IanKR]

None that I could find via Bexleyheath or Greenwich.

None that I've seen, either. Thanks for the link to that PDF doc on seat availability.

 

[ComUtoR]

There are at least two down AM counterpeak services on the Greenwich line which are 12 cars. The 0902 from my station Maze Hill is 12 car, skips Woolwich Dockyard and 'terminates' at Barnehurst. I'd be surprised if it didn't then go to Cannon Street via Bexleyheath.

There is certainly more than I found because the one that we take is already in service and I didn't see that listed in those PDF's. I think those documents are a snapshot of some main peak services not the whole peak or in all directions.


Cheers Barn. FYI those services will "terminate" to avoid confusion. The CIS is also pretty dumb on the rounders because they advertise midpoints and not the whole journey. It is to avoid confusion when the Charing Cross train shows on both platforms

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It also means Central Automatic in certain locations (but not this one).

 

[carriageline]

TL apparently stands for Three Bridges re-control of London Bridge, and will take place area by area for some time. So the T being added is a sign that the area has been re-controlled.

In a recent thread I think someone initially suggested it might have stood for Thameslink, but it turned out otherwise.

The man (presumably )is correct. The same with TVS/TWH for the old Victoria and West Hampstead panels, and TEB for East Sussex.

Charing Cross is scheduled to come up the ROC January 2016, with Cannon Street following August 2016. I believe London Bridge eastern is also coming up with both of these, at some point at least.

 

[IanKR]

... Charing Cross is scheduled to come up the ROC January 2016, with Cannon Street following August 2016. I believe London Bridge eastern is also coming up with both of these, at some point at least.

"ROC" - is that one of these?:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/infrastructure/single-view/view/network-rail-officially-opens-biggest-railway-control-centre.html

 

[Controller1701]

TEB is the new code for Three Bridges Eastbourne rather than East Coast

Paul

 

[carriageline]

TEB is the new code for Three Bridges Eastbourne rather than East Coast



Paul

Well, it's the old Eastbourne prefix with a T for the re control. It's the East coast workstation

 

[ComUtoR]

Hello Driver of 2BXX on the up snow hill at Tango Victor Sierra, this is Three bridges ROC core south.

Mouthfull and a half :/

A'right Drive, Victoria here. Whats up.

Ahh the old days...