Removal of Sleeper services?

[geoffk]

Tourism wise it's very well used by passengers who are wanting to either catch the Scillonian ferry or the early Skybus flights to the Isles of Scilly.

Does anyone know why the Night Riviera no longer carries local passengers in Cornwall? From the May timetable change, the XC service at 22.08 from PNZ will not run, meaning the last train will be at 21.00 - apart from the Sleeper. I assume it carries a seated coach and picking up local passengers might give it some extra political support as well as taking those who otherwise will have to rely on taxis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know why the Night Riviera no longer carries local passengers in Cornwall? From the May timetable change, the XC service at 22.08 from PNZ will not run, meaning the last train will be at 21.00 - apart from the Sleeper. I assume it carries a seated coach and picking up local passengers might give it some extra political support as well as taking those who otherwise will have to rely on taxis.

It was because of the slamdoors. But now they're locking the droplights I'm not sure it's necessary to keep the restrictions?

 

[ShadowKnight]

No. The market is met by coaches which are more conducive to passengers sleeping, as the lights can be turned off and the journey times are longer. If it could be done commercially, Lumo would be using their 803s to do it. Indeed, an 803, with mainly 'airline' seating sold on a two seats for one person basis wouldn't be bad rolling stock to use. However, the market is unlikely to be big enough, and the 803 is limited to where it can run by availability of an electrified route. (I don't suppose they have a night setting for the internal lights either.)


Immediately that a train stops at stations that reduces the security of the passengers aboard to feel comfortable sleeping. As pointed out by others, trains set up for daytime travel aren't ideal for overnight travel.


The market for a 04:00 train only includes people who have a base to wake up from in Cornwall. It isn't any good for inbound tourism.

In what frequency of stops makes passengers less comfortable sleeping? I cant imagine any European (or UK) sleeper without intermediate stops. The whole point of a night train/sleeper is to stop a few times enroute at night

 

[jagardner1984]

Personally I think both governments would scrap them in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it.

But I think in the context of an extra few hundred million here or there to sort out whatever today's disaster is, it's just not worth the political capital to have weeks of argument with well organised lobby groups (that's us folks), to save a few million here or there.

Speaking from Scotland perspective, I think when CS' new stock came in there was embarrassment about the whole "£400 one way for a Bed" thing .... from a socially liberal centre-left government.

However, whatever the reasons and merits are, they have moved away from it being a "lifeline service to London" from various West Highland Line halts (the defence in the 90s when they tried to lose the Fort William), and are now more honest about it being a tourist trap to bring tourists to Scotland (their value to the highland economy really cannot be underestimated), and based on the number of times I cannot book said £400 room weeks in advance, where only the seats or one class of cabin is available, they are clearly doing something right, as it is frequently full.

The bigger question is when the Riviera stock is genuinely life expired and there is a need for further significant investment.

But as we have discovered and are discovering, the old line of "once HS2 is built, this won't be necessary" is easier delivered in an animation launch film than with a tunnel boring machine and a shovel (and an even weaker argument in Penzance !). Personally I am skeptical I will be able to achieve either of the following things in the remainder of my working life (20 years or so):

1. Get an early first WCML train that arrives significantly before the current time (0915 or so).
2. Get an early first WCML train that leaves significantly after the current time (0430) and arrives at the current time.

And so for various reasons of my work, and a 3am alarm call to get to said train having much the same impact on my day as not sleeping at all, the Sleeper will still have some market, and I for one am glad of its existence.

I imagine there are things they can do which will go far more under the radar and save a lot more money (removing large amounts of "excess" rolling stock from many of the franchises in the country, for example).

Given there is some merit to the argument that the primary alternative market for the sleeper is airlines, rather than day trains (said well heeled travellers being time poor presumably resistant to Avanti's penchant for depositing Scotland bound travellers in Preston or other English palaces of Rail at all hours of the day or night), it would be a brave incoming government who would save a fairly small amount of money for the "Government slashes electric rail services to cut costs in boost for Domestic Air Travel" headlines.

Governments of all flavours will go to almost all lengths to avoid bravery.

 

[geoffk]

It was because of the slam doors. But now they're locking the droplights I'm not sure it's necessary to keep the restrictions?

I'm struggling to see the logic there, seeing that the sleeper has always had slam doors; OK it's now the only such train remaining on the network, other than charter stock. Just a thought - could an HST car be substituted for the seated car on the sleeper (as many will be coming out of service soon)? This would mean a mixture of powers doors and slam doors on the same train and I expect that would be a step too far for the "powers that be"!

As has been commented on above, the Mark III stock won't last for ever and a decision on its replacement will have to be made in x years time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm struggling to see the logic there, seeing that the sleeper has always had slam doors; OK it's now the only such train remaining on the network, other than charter stock. Just a thought - could an HST car be substituted for the seated car on the sleeper (as many will be coming out of service soon)? This would mean a mixture of powers doors and slam doors on the same train and I expect that would be a step too far for the "powers that be"!

As has been commented on above, the Mark III stock won't last for ever and a decision on its replacement will have to be made in x years time.

It was after the droplight incidents. It was felt that a small number of sleeper passengers was lower risk. However the droplights now have locks on them so this risk has gone.

Regarding replacement I can see "HS2 kills the Lowlander, Mk5s go west" as the most likely assuming it's not just binned.

 

[sprinterguy]

Just a thought - could an HST car be substituted for the seated car on the sleeper (as many will be coming out of service soon)?

Not easily: Totally different train supply requirements for HST mark 3s, no buffers fitted to the carriages, and I'd suspect compatibility issues with door controls and interlock: It works with the one remaining manual door on the TGS vehicle of an HST, but wonder how it'd translate to a largely slam door rake.

 

[Devonian]

I worry that the Night Riviera and Caledonian Sleeper now serve very different markets and have different requirements: the Caledonian has clearly moved into luxury discretionary tourism, while the Night Riviera remains an extremely valued, and well-used, practical service. There was a huge outcry over proposals to scrap the Night Riviera in 2005, when it was at a fairly low ebb, and its usage has grown greatly since then.

In particular, the latter serves a much wider purpose than just London to Cornwall tourism or London business meetings - the links to and from the Isles of Scilly and early connections from Cornwall and Devon to Eurostar and even to the north are often overlooked. There is no realistic prospect of a high-speed line eating into its market, no practical (or desirable) domestic air alternative, and the privacy/security afforded by the sleeper cannot be matched by seated road or rail transport.

I am always nervous about the 'obvious' movement of Caledonian Mk5s to the Night Riviera: the hotel-on-wheels concept leaves them with a much lower capacity - 25 - 30% fewer compartments in a rake thanks to carriages with as few as five luxury 'rooms' - which would be at odds with the demand for berths on the Night Riviera. The ability to charge luxury hotel fares to compensate is surely much lower on the Night Riviera where you can't sell a dining experience on a train that leaves late evening and you can't sell the dream of a refreshing shower followed by a leisurely scenic breakfast if you're turfing off customers in Platform 1 at 6.45.

Perhaps a conversion of Trans Pennine Mk5s might be a different starting point for a lower-cost dedicated fleet tailored to the needs of the Night Riviera. Higher density interlocking single compartments, as suggested by Bletchleyite in another thread, would almost certainly be more suited to the route than en-suites, and more profitable.

In the meantime, could loco-hauled Mk3s from Chiltern be transferred to the Night Riviera at some stage, restoring its local seated use to help its economics?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern stock is an interesting option. I'd imagine the door circuits aren't directly compatible, but can they be made so I wonder? Or can there just be two separate door control systems anyway? It's so slackly timed that the guard having to separately control each would hardly be a killer.

However would the droplight locks be enough? The droplight incident was cited as the cause of the removal of day passengers.

Given the simplicity of the service, if they did build new I could see sense in a multiple unit solution, though you'd want something Stadleresque as I can't see much enjoyment in trying to sleep with 750bhp under your head. Though the economics of new-build for this non-premium service are likely to be extremely shaky. I was always surprised that in the days of HSTs being the norm there they didn't turn them into sleeper HST sets to give that commonality and simplicity - put a motor-alternator in the van area of one of the power cars for the hotel power. No point now though.

 

[30907]

In what frequency of stops makes passengers less comfortable sleeping? I cant imagine any European (or UK) sleeper without intermediate stops. The whole point of a night train/sleeper is to stop a few times enroute at night

The whole point of a sleeper - in mainland (Western?) Europe at least - is that passengers aren't disturbed at night, so on an EN/NJ service there is no boarding/alighting midnight-0500. The seats cars may have a different regime though.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s been 30 years - almost to the day - since I last used the Penzance sleeper. Weather was much like today too! I must admit I don’t know if it has a seated coach, and if so how well does it load?

I am always nervous about the 'obvious' movement of Caledonian Mk5s to the Night Riviera: the hotel-on-wheels concept leaves them with a much lower capacity - 25 - 30% fewer compartments in a rake thanks to carriages with as few as five luxury 'rooms' - which would be at odds with the demand for berths on the Night Riviera.

Theres broadly two reasons for the reduced number of berths:

1) a desire for en-suite accommodation (which people are very much prepared to pay extra for)
2) the need for accessible accommodation.

 

[irish_rail]

It’s been 30 years - almost to the day - since I last used the Penzance sleeper. Weather was much like today too! I must admit I don’t know if it has a seated coach, and if so how well does it load?



Theres broadly two reasons for the reduced number of berths:

1) a desire for en-suite accommodation (which people are very much prepared to pay extra for)
2) the need for accessible accommodation.

Seated coach always has a healthy load from my observations at Plymouth. And I completely echo Devonians comments on the importance of the Riviera sleeper going forward. It really is crucial for people living down here (as well as incoming tourists). The irony of course is that i expect if one sleeper had to be chopped, its safe to say it wouldn't be the Scottish one. ..

 

[Bald Rick]

The irony of course is that i expect if one sleeper had to be chopped, its safe to say it wouldn't be the Scottish one. ..

Think you mean the Scottish two, or arguably five.

I can certainly see ‘a’ Scottish sleeper going (One of the five).

 

[MattRat]

Think you mean the Scottish two, or arguably five.

I can certainly see ‘a’ Scottish sleeper going (One of the five).

Which one though? I can guess it won't be the ones serving Glasgow, Edinburgh, or Fort William, so that only leaves 2 left.

 

[stuu]

Seated coach always has a healthy load from my observations at Plymouth. And I completely echo Devonians comments on the importance of the Riviera sleeper going forward. It really is crucial for people living down here (as well as incoming tourists). The irony of course is that i expect if one sleeper had to be chopped, its safe to say it wouldn't be the Scottish one. ..

Crucial is a big word to use

Marsh Barton viaduct is crucial. The sleeper on the other hand is a rounding error on the scale of movement between the south west and the rest of the country

 

[Bletchleyite]

Think you mean the Scottish two, or arguably five.

I can certainly see ‘a’ Scottish sleeper going (One of the five).

I think there is a very significant chance of the Aberdeen portion being binned, for a few reasons:

1. The shunt is an expensive faff compared to a simple split in two.
2. Aberdeen is only a couple of hours from Edinburgh, whereas Inverness and FW are more like 4 hours, thus connecting to Aberdeen on a day train from the Lowlander is much less painful. At present if I recall the connection is fairly bad, but that's fairly easy to fix. Even putting a dedicated 158/170 service in addition to what is there now would be cheaper than what happens now.
3. Demand to FW is growing, so a full half-train including seats would be very useful.
4. It now seems to be the poorest-used of them all.

Post HS2 I could see the Lowlander going too, but that requires all of HS2 to be built, and goodness knows when that will be!

The issue for the Riviera is that it's in England, really. There are much more likely to be cuts in England than Scotland.

 

[43096]

Seated coach always has a healthy load from my observations at Plymouth.

There’s two seated coaches on the Night Riviera.

 

[geoffk]

Not easily: Totally different train supply requirements for HST mark 3s, no buffers fitted to the carriages, and I'd suspect compatibility issues with door controls and interlock: It works with the one remaining manual door on the TGS vehicle of an HST, but wonder how it'd translate to a largely slam door rake.

Thanks, I assumed as much. What exactly was the "droplight incident" referred to?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks, I assumed as much. What exactly was the "droplight incident" referred to?

Someone stuck their head out of the droplight on a Class 442 and had it knocked off, basically. After that incident there has been much stronger control on stock with them, including charters needing stewards to prevent people sticking their head out and the likes.

 

[geoffk]

Someone stuck their head out of the droplight on a Class 442 and had it knocked off, basically. After that incident there has been much stronger control on stock with them, including charters needing stewards to prevent people sticking their head out and the likes.

Nothing to do with the sleeper then. But is there anything to stop anyone using the seated coach overnight from doing the same? You could try the Cumbrian Coast solution - bars on windows - required because of restricted clearance in Whitehaven tunnel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nothing to do with the sleeper then.

No, but relevant to it.

But is there anything to stop anyone using the seated coach overnight from doing the same?

It was felt that due to the very small number of passengers the risk for the Sleeper was lower.

You could try the Cumbrian Coast solution - bars on windows - required because of restricted clearance in Whitehaven tunnel.

It's been dealt with - the droplights now lock when the door is locked.