Removal of Sleeper services?

[MattRat]

Since the Caledonian sleeper and Riviera sleeper both operate at a loss, and the government is looking to cut costs on the railways, what do people think are the chances of those services being cut to save money, with reasoning for or against said cuts.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Since the Caledonian sleeper and Riviera sleeper both operate at a loss, and the government is looking to cut costs on the railways, what do people think are the chances of those services being cut to save money, with reasoning for or against said cuts.

The Caledonian Sleeper is funded by the Scottish Government and seems therefore to be under no immediate threat.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

The Caledonian Sleeper is funded by the Scottish Government and seems therefore to be under no immediate threat.

Unless they get independence and then they won’t be able to afford it

 

[JonathanH]

Unless they get independence and then they won’t be able to afford it

It wouldn't be needed after independence, as English and Scottish residents would likely have less business in each other's countries.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Unless they get independence and then they won’t be able to afford it

Au contraire. If Scotland was to become independent, despite the obvious opposition of the English establishment, the continued operation of the Caledonian Sleepers would be a fine way to boldly wave the flag south of the border and as such would be a politically justified expenditure, at least in the minds of diehard Scottish nationalists. The "Deerstalker Express" is unlikely to go away.

 

[JonathanH]

the continued operation of the Caledonian Sleepers would be a fine way to boldly wave the flag south of the border

With more than half of the journey in England, not to mention the issue of employing English and Scottish based staff, it would be a more complex operation to continue running.

 

[James H]

Since the Caledonian sleeper and Riviera sleeper both operate at a loss, and the government is looking to cut costs on the railways, what do people think are the chances of those services being cut to save money, with reasoning for or against said cuts.

Cutting either sleeper service would be extremely politically controversial - they are likely fairly safe for that reason.

 

[irish_rail]

Re the Riviera the alternative from Cornwall to London doesn't reach the capital until 10. Too late to be viable. Id say the Riviera certainly should be retained, its also important for tourism, connectivity, levelling up etc etc, although with the current administration who knows for sure. Like a wounded animal I'm not sure they care who they upset anymore (the DafT)

 

[James H]

There are some constituencies on the route of the Night Riviera that are likely to be quite marginal at the next election - the Tories won't want to give the Lib Dems easy ammunition for their leaflets

 

[MattRat]

Re the Riviera the alternative from Cornwall to London doesn't reach the capital until 10. Too late to be viable. Id say the Riviera certainly should be retained, its also important for tourism, connectivity, levelling up etc etc, although with the current administration who knows for sure. Like a wounded animal I'm not sure they care who they upset anymore (the DafT)

Part of me thinks GWRs hand may be forced if they want something else in return. It doesn't have to be like for like, but say they used the freed up 57s to run loco hauled (most likely mk3s), to add capacity to routes like Cardiff to Portsmouth. It would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, but GWR may have no other option.

My main point being desperate times cause desperate measures, and the Rivieria is easy pickings for the TOC, even if it wouldn't be if the railways were nationalized.

 

[irish_rail]

There are some constituencies on the route of the Night Riviera that are likely to be quite marginal at the next election - the Tories won't want to give the Lib Dems easy ammunition for their leaflets

Agreed, anecdotally speaking the tories are in for a huge shock in the south west, and both Lib dems and Labour will make some big gains.

 

[Falcon1200]

With more than half of the journey in England, not to mention the issue of employing English and Scottish based staff, it would be a more complex operation to continue running.

Indeed, not to mention the passport and customs checks required for the new border!

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Indeed, not to mention the passport and customs checks required for the new border!

And a change in currency as they will not be allowed to keep the English Pound

 

[Basil Jet]

And a change in currency as they will not be allowed to keep the English Pound

Why not? Ireland kept it for half a century.

 

[D365]

Part of me thinks GWRs hand may be forced if they want something else in return. It doesn't have to be like for like, but say they used the freed up 57s to run loco hauled (most likely mk3s), to add capacity to routes like Cardiff to Portsmouth. It would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, but GWR may have no other option.

First Group has expressed an interest in replacing the 57s, so there's no chance of them being retained in any scenario.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With more than half of the journey in England, not to mention the issue of employing English and Scottish based staff, it would be a more complex operation to continue running.

I don't think it'd be unduly hard for them to maintain a couple of corporate apartments in London and employ only Scottish staff with them overnighting there. And plenty of European and Asian sleepers go through customs checks.

 

[Kingston Dan]

I don't think it'd be unduly hard for them to maintain a couple of corporate apartments in London and employ only Scottish staff with them overnighting there. And plenty of European and Asian sleepers go through customs checks.

And Scotland and England would still be part of the common travel area (as is the Irish Republic).

 

[Bletchleyite]

And Scotland and England would still be part of the common travel area (as is the Irish Republic).

They almost certainly would, but it seems difficult to envisage it being possible for them not to have a hard customs border. Switzerland is in Schengen so people can move unhindered, but there are still customs posts you have to pass through to enter or leave it as it's not in the EU customs zone. But as the UK approach to customs has always been fairly targetted with little interest in somebody having brought a couple of bottles of wine or a packet of fags too many back from their week in Magaluf, I suspect this would be intelligence based and done on board.

Of course by the time the whole Scottish independence thing is voted for and faffed about, RUK may well have decided to rejoin the common market in some form, and so that may not be an issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course by the time the whole Scottish independence thing is voted for and faffed about, RUK may well have decided to rejoin the common market in some form, and so that may not be an issue.

Can we do that as a forum? Where do I sign?

 

[greyman42]

Unless they get independence

They won't.

 

[LiftFan]

Re the Riviera the alternative from Cornwall to London doesn't reach the capital until 10. Too late to be viable. Id say the Riviera certainly should be retained, its also important for tourism, connectivity, levelling up etc etc, although with the current administration who knows for sure. Like a wounded animal I'm not sure they care who they upset anymore (the DafT)

Tourism wise it's very well used by passengers who are wanting to either catch the Scillonian ferry or the early Skybus flights to the Isles of Scilly.

 

[deltic]

The cost of supporting both sleepers is incredibly high and the number of people using them is extremely low - time they were scrapped. Whether there is a case for providing an overnight seating only service from London to Scotland would be interesting. I see German railways now operate a number of overnight services using standard intercity rolling stock. A nightly train meandering from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Scotland might be viable.

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Tourism wise it's very well used by passengers who are wanting to either catch the Scillonian ferry or the early Skybus flights to the Isles of Scilly.

How many is well used - a dozen? The published loadings I have seen average 50 a day in each direction

 

[greyman42]

The cost of supporting both sleepers is incredibly high and the number of people using them is extremely low - time they were scrapped. Whether there is a case for providing an overnight seating only service from London to Scotland would be interesting. I see German railways now operate a number of overnight services using standard intercity rolling stock. A nightly train meandering from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Scotland might be viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==


How many is well used - a dozen? The published loadings I have seen average 50 a day in each direction

If there was a nightly train with seating only stock, the seats would have to be a lot comfier than present inter city provides.

 

[Chester1]

Why not? Ireland kept it for half a century.

The Punt was its own currency pegged 1:1 with pound sterling. It was like todays Isle of Man pounds not Scottish or Northern Irish pounds (which are the same currency issued on licence). It was later floated on currency markets. The Scottish government could chose to keep using the pound but it would become a foreign currency managed by Bank of England for the benefit of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. For instance Scotland wouldn't be considered when interest rates are set and if a change is bad for Scotland that would be tough luck. Its only viable for a modern developed country for a few months to enable a Scottish currency to be created and distributed.

I would be surprised if the government was prepared to take political hit in marginal constituencies in South West of England. It would be a sensible cut otherwise.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would be surprised if the government was prepared to take political hit in marginal constituencies in South West of England. It would be a sensible cut otherwise.

But would it be a political hit? Certainly not a big one, compared to all the other stuff going on.

 

[philosopher]

The cost of supporting both sleepers is incredibly high and the number of people using them is extremely low - time they were scrapped. Whether there is a case for providing an overnight seating only service from London to Scotland would be interesting. I see German railways now operate a number of overnight services using standard intercity rolling stock. A nightly train meandering from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Scotland might be viable.

Could the Night Rivera be replaced by a very early train, say leaving at Penzance and Paddington at 04:00 in the morning and arriving at around 09:00?

 

[GWVillager]

There are some constituencies on the route of the Night Riviera that are likely to be quite marginal at the next election - the Tories won't want to give the Lib Dems easy ammunition for their leaflets

I'm not sure. As has been mentioned in the Portsmouth to Cardiff thread this seems to have next to no impact on whether anything is actually done.

 

[irish_rail]

Could the Night Rivera be replaced by a very early train, say leaving at Penzance and Paddington at 04:00 in the morning and arriving at around 09:00?

This is exactly what I suggested up thread. However 4 am is ludicrously early for most people and few would be prepared to set a 0300 alarm in order to be on the 4am departure. There is a reason the sleeper has survived as long as it has and id say it isn't going anywhere, despite some on here who bizarrely would love to see it gone! And on a supposedly pro rail forum!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==

There are some constituencies on the route of the Night Riviera that are likely to be quite marginal at the next election - the Tories won't want to give the Lib Dems easy ammunition for their leaflets

Agreed. The south west will arguably make or break the Tories at the next election. My personal feeling is it will go mainly red and yellow but with a flavour of blue retained in some constituencies. The government would probably be wise to focus more on thr south west and less on the Red Wall in the North who got its Brexit and now will almost certainly vote Labour anyway.

 

[JonathanH]

Whether there is a case for providing an overnight seating only service from London to Scotland would be interesting.

No. The market is met by coaches which are more conducive to passengers sleeping, as the lights can be turned off and the journey times are longer. If it could be done commercially, Lumo would be using their 803s to do it. Indeed, an 803, with mainly 'airline' seating sold on a two seats for one person basis wouldn't be bad rolling stock to use. However, the market is unlikely to be big enough, and the 803 is limited to where it can run by availability of an electrified route. (I don't suppose they have a night setting for the internal lights either.)

A nightly train meandering from London to Birmingham, Manchester and Scotland might be viable.

Immediately that a train stops at stations that reduces the security of the passengers aboard to feel comfortable sleeping. As pointed out by others, trains set up for daytime travel aren't ideal for overnight travel.

Could the Night Rivera be replaced by a very early train, say leaving at Penzance and Paddington at 04:00 in the morning and arriving at around 09:00?

The market for a 04:00 train only includes people who have a base to wake up from in Cornwall. It isn't any good for inbound tourism.

 

[Chester1]

But would it be a political hit? Certainly not a big one, compared to all the other stuff going on.

I knew a councilor who won an election by 2 votes. Some of those marginal seats could be ones that are won or lost by a few dozen votes. Id prefer it was scrapped over most alternative GWR cuts but its something that could cause a backlash. The sort of thing that people like the idea of but few bother to use.

This is exactly what I suggested up thread. However 4 am is ludicrously early for most people and few would be prepared to set a 0300 alarm in order to be on the 4am departure. There is a reason the sleeper has survived as long as it has and id say it isn't going anywhere, despite some on here who bizarrely would love to see it gone! And on a supposedly pro rail forum!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2023 ==


Agreed. The south west will arguably make or break the Tories at the next election. My personal feeling is it will go mainly red and yellow but with a flavour of blue retained in some constituencies. The government would probably be wise to focus more on thr south west and less on the Red Wall in the North who got its Brexit and now will almost certainly vote Labour anyway.

I agree with you on the red wall but with the caveat that the Labour keep to "make brexit work" policy. If I where a Tory I would focus more on South West. I keep pointing out to people that Labour need to jump from 202 MPs in 2019 to 326+ in 2024. My money is on Starmer being our next PM. That could well be after gaining a hundred MPs but still needing some sort of agreement with Lib Dems to enter Downing Street. If Lib Dems do well in the south they could end up with 25-30 MPs and deprive Labour of a majority. The Tories should be careful to not give the Lib Dems stuff that can be spun against them.