Remote working preferences (in the longer term)

[Bletchleyite]

That feels awfully close to American "Zoning" rules, I didn't realise we had anything close to that in the UK!

Yes, it basically is.

It's common as a Deed of Covenant in New Towns but pretty much unheard of elsewhere. Though it's very common for leasehold flats to prohibit the carrying on of non-clerical business, i.e. you're fine working from home on your laptop but not setting up a dental surgery or something. This probably makes sense as a flow of customers/visitors would cause disruption to other leaseholders in the building.

The covenants are not very well enforced and plenty of people do have non-clerical businesses at home in New Towns (you can see that easily enough just by looking at Google Maps) but something most likely would be done if someone set up a retail storefront in a residential property.

 

[AdamWW]

And all 300 get a 14 day prison sentence to be served under house arrest.

I know this is a bit old but I've just seen it.

Putting the over-the-top language aside, when did the government say that if someone who has attended business premises is diagnosed with Covid-19 everyone working on the same site has to self-isolate, rather than going through the contract tracing route that would be used in any other circumstances?

 

[Scrotnig]

I know this is a bit old but I've just seen it.

Putting the over-the-top language aside, when did the government say that if someone who has attended business premises is diagnosed with Covid-19 everyone working on the same site has to self-isolate, rather than going through the contract tracing route that would be used in any other circumstances?

There have been several news reports that state words to the effect of "the building has been closed and all employees have been instructed to self isolate for 14 days".

It doesn't seem to be every single case but it is certainly happening.

 

[AdamWW]

There have been several news reports that state words to the effect of "the building has been closed and all employees have been instructed to self isolate for 14 days".

It doesn't seem to be every single case but it is certainly happening.

I've missed that. Instructed by whom though? I wouldn't have thought employers could order employees to do that, and I didn't think the government was doing so...

 

[takno]

I've missed that. Instructed by whom though? I wouldn't have thought employers could order employees to do that, and I didn't think the government was doing so...

The only reference I've seen was the Motherwell call centre, which was the Scottish Government. Our government are rather more given to getting over-excited, and are somewhat behind the UK government in reopening plans for offices, so could well be operating under completely different legislation.

 

[AdamWW]

The only reference I've seen was the Motherwell call centre, which was the Scottish Government. Our government are rather more given to getting over-excited, and are somewhat behind the UK government in reopening plans for offices, so could well be operating under completely different legislation.

OK but wasn't that already a 'cluster' by the time they found it, i.e. not a case of just a single person testing positive?

Actually I've just noticed the comment I responded to suggested 300 people in an office being "imprisoned" at home for 2 weeks because a single worker showed symptoms, which I don't think is very likely.

 

[Crossover]

Whilst I’ve been increasing time in the office of late, I’ll be back full time from next week - it definitely feels like some normality is returning at last

I think I would have struggled going from nothing to all but it feels like a natural progression and it’ll be nice to be back into the ‘usual’ routine (I may retract this if the M62 falls over, mind!)

Depends which part of IT - I can certainly think of some examples of large-scale offshoring in the past decade, e.g. Dell moved almost all their UK accounts teams and most of the support centres from Dublin to India not many years ago.

My Dell account manager was one affected by that. Was a bit miffed being moved but our ‘new’ team in India have been really good and had some good conversations with them, one of which was about the Covid situation when they were also working from home. That said, I have no idea what hours they work as our account manager seems to respond at various hours!

 

[telstarbox]

Yes, it basically is.

It's common as a Deed of Covenant in New Towns but pretty much unheard of elsewhere. Though it's very common for leasehold flats to prohibit the carrying on of non-clerical business, i.e. you're fine working from home on your laptop but not setting up a dental surgery or something. This probably makes sense as a flow of customers/visitors would cause disruption to other leaseholders in the building.

The covenants are not very well enforced and plenty of people do have non-clerical businesses at home in New Towns (you can see that easily enough just by looking at Google Maps) but something most likely would be done if someone set up a retail storefront in a residential property.

That would typically need a planning application anyway.

 

[telstarbox]

BBC today suggests no rush to return to offices:

Fifty of the biggest UK employers questioned by BBC have said they have no plans to return all staff to the office full-time in the near future.

Some 24 firms said that they did not have any plans in place to return workers to the office.

However, 20 have opened their offices for staff unable to work from home.

It comes as many employees return to work from the summer holidays with the reality of a prolonged period of home working becoming increasingly likely.

The BBC questioned 50 big employers ranging from banks to retailers to get a sense of when they expected to ask employees to return to the office.

No plan for a return to the office for millions of staff

Fifty of the biggest UK employers say they have no plans to return all their staff full-time in the near future.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[westv]

A full 100% return to offices won't be possible anyway until "social distancing" guidance is revoked.

 

[takno]

BBC today suggests no rush to return to offices:

No plan for a return to the office for millions of staff

Fifty of the biggest UK employers say they have no plans to return all their staff full-time in the near future.

www.bbc.co.uk

All the survey says is that not everyone is going back full time imminently because half of companies aren't planning to make or possibly let them. I reckon there will be a solid drift back of people at least part time a few days a week once schools are back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A full 100% return to offices won't be possible anyway until "social distancing" guidance is revoked.

A full 100% return to offices will never happen. We have moved on 10-20 years of remote working progress in just a few months. This was always going to happen anyway.

 

[Jamesrob637]

A full 100% return to offices will never happen. We have moved on 10-20 years of remote working progress in just a few months. This was always going to happen anyway.

Nearly 100% of staff will go back, but far from every employee, every day, even long-term.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nearly 100% of staff will go back, but far from every employee, every day, even long-term.

And that is a really good thing. If you haven't done a proper heavyweight South East London commute, you haven't experienced just how bad it is even if the train service is reliable. The main issue is lack of sleep - rise at 0600 or earlier, but you don't get home until at least 1900 which means a choice between eat, one TV programme and bed[1], or if you want to have a life then only 5 hours' sleep (by the time you're actually asleep) each night. And sleep is poorer if you're still digesting your dinner, it causes all sorts of issues like acid reflux. It's just not a healthy way of living.

Even one day at home makes a huge difference, 2 even more so, 3 a total game changer.

Yes, it'll harm those businesses that exist to flog overpriced sandwiches to commuters, but they could move to cheaper premises in the suburbs and set up a lunchtime cafe or similar. When you're at home, going out for lunch can break the day up nicely.

[1] Unless you're Maggie Thatcher, to get enough sleep for an 0600 start you really need to be in bed, light off, by 2200 latest. Some people seem to require less sleep, but the vast majority just tough through it with strong coffees, and that's really unhealthy.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is it worth creating a separate thread on the relationship between home working and families? Me and my last date went to great lengths talking about if we both WFH when the time came to move in together, and whether a bigger house may be required so that we both have separate studies. Even then, would you want to see/be with your spouse like that all day, every day? One in office 2 days, the other in office a different two days and common WFH on, say, a Monday or Friday, may work, but not always in the same four walls.

 

[Kingspanner]

My wife and I used to commute daily, me on the train, her in the car. Now I am WFH full-time, she is 2/3 days per week.

Luckily, we have a big house and a big garden and don't hate each other, so lockdown has actually been good.

 

[big_rig]

And that is a really good thing. If you haven't done a proper heavyweight South East London commute, you haven't experienced just how bad it is even if the train service is reliable. The main issue is lack of sleep - rise at 0600 or earlier, but you don't get home until at least 1900 which means a choice between eat, one TV programme and bed[1], or if you want to have a life then only 5 hours' sleep (by the time you're actually asleep) each night. And sleep is poorer if you're still digesting your dinner, it causes all sorts of issues like acid reflux. It's just not a healthy way of living.

Even one day at home makes a huge difference, 2 even more so, 3 a total game changer.

Yes, it'll harm those businesses that exist to flog overpriced sandwiches to commuters, but they could move to cheaper premises in the suburbs and set up a lunchtime cafe or similar. When you're at home, going out for lunch can break the day up nicely.

[1] Unless you're Maggie Thatcher, to get enough sleep for an 0600 start you really need to be in bed, light off, by 2200 latest. Some people seem to require less sleep, but the vast majority just tough through it with strong coffees, and that's really unhealthy.

Let's be honest and replace this with 'every business in cities which could not survive having their footfall reduced by something like half,' as this is what we really mean - people going from a 4 or 5 day commute to a 1 or 2 day one.

What do you propose we do with everybody who works in such a business or supporting industries including the railway (I don't know the figure but having nearly 10 million people on the furlough scheme is somewhere to start), let alone the flow-on impact on whoever will no longer be getting paid rent etc? There are only so many jobs going in the new covid economy for mask inspectors and people regulating entry to Sainsbury's. I don't think even Jeremy Corbyn proposed anything nearly as radical as this in terms of immediately putting wide swathes of the population out of work overnight and that was with him doing people the favour of running for office and giving people a democratic choice as to whether they liked the sound of his ideas or not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's be honest and replace this with 'every business in cities which could not survive having their footfall reduced by half,' as this is what we really mean - people going from a 4 or 5 day commute to a 1 or 2 day one.

What do you propose we do with everybody who works in such a business or supporting industries including the railway (I don't know the figure but having nearly 10 million people on the furlough scheme is somewhere to start), let alone the flow-on impact on whoever will no longer be getting paid rent etc? There are only so many jobs going in the new covid economy for mask inspectors and people regulating entry to Sainsbury's. I don't think even Jeremy Corbyn proposed anything nearly as radical as this in terms of immediately putting wide swathes of the population out of work overnight and that was with him doing people the favour of running for office and giving people a democratic choice as to whether they liked the sound of his ideas or not.

I've already suggested one - there's likely to be more custom for local service-type businesses in suburbs and small towns serving those who are now there instead of in the big city. Even things like corner shops could see a resurgence as office workers get through the tea and milk at home! Potentially we are seeing a "relocalisation" - a move back to the way things were 50+ years ago - and many of the things that have changed are quite negative so this is to be welcomed.

The railway is a more awkward one, but as it basically runs on overtime the first step is to eliminate overtime and rest day working (which will improve reliability). Then staff will leave through natural wastage, so you're probably talking a multi-year recruitment freeze.

There is no point fighting this, it was happening anyway slowly, and for the environment it's a really good thing. Often it takes a big event to rebalance things - often a war - and COVID is no different. Fighting it is just Luddism; instead of seeing the downsides we need to see, and take, the opportunities.

 

[big_rig]

So crudely speaking then the idea is that most people working in hospitality and retail at the very least in central cities in this country will get the sack, but we trust that we can magic up the same jobs elsewhere (maybe they can feature in Robocop: London when all of zone 1 goes to pot), but if not oh well too bad they were on the way out anyway. Add to this everybody else who gets managed out of declining industries which cannot survive in the new home-based economy. If this is such a great idea do you think we could have a vote on it to make sure we all think so?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is such a great idea do you think we could have a vote on it to make sure we all think so?

How do you think that would work? The home-working policy of any given business is their own choice, not anybody else's.

 

[philosopher]

So crudely speaking then the idea is that most people working in hospitality and retail at the very least in central cities in this country will get the sack, but we trust that we can magic up the same jobs elsewhere (maybe they can feature in Robocop: London when all of zone 1 goes to pot), but if not oh well too bad they were on the way out anyway. Add to this everybody else who gets managed out of declining industries which cannot survive in the new home-based economy. If this is such a great idea do you think we could have a vote on it to make sure we all think so?

Much greater WFH does seem like it is going to be most significant impact from this pandemic. I don‘t deny that WFH has some advantages, however WFH does seem to pose a massive problem for city centres and cities in general. Governments and society are going to have to find a way, and find a way pretty quick to ensure that cities continue to prosper as a result of this, otherwise the results I fear are not going to be pretty.

Relocating businesses to suburbs and rural areas does not really address the issue, all it will lead to is even more vacant businesses and unemployment in cities, excerbating the problem. Greater unemployment and poverty in cities will then lead to more crime, homelessness, more businesses closing etc, creating a vicious cycle of decline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Much greater WFH does seem like it is going to be most significant impact from this pandemic. I don‘t deny that WFH has some advantages, however WFH does seem to pose a massive problem for city centres and cities in general. Governments and society are going to have to find a way, and find a way pretty quick to ensure that cities continue to prosper as a result of this, otherwise the results I fear are not going to be pretty.

There's a housing shortage, so the obvious answer is conversion - quality conversion, not cheap-rubbish conversion as we've seen so far. Non-car-owning young people would love it at the right price. Might we see genuinely affordable homes in central London perhaps?

 

[big_rig]

How do you think that would work? The home-working policy of any given business is their own choice, not anybody else's.

I was going to hold my tongue on my idea because I thought it was a bit too mad, but then I saw your proposal to turn all of central London's offices into housing, so how about the following referendum (in the absence of a vaccine)?

A) Do we want to see X units of social and economic ruin from the destruction of hundreds of thousands/millions of jobs overnight and the hollowing out of every city in the country, and enforce an increased tax rate of Y for Z years on all remaining in employment to pay for it; or
B) Pass a law to return all home working arrangements to as they were on 1 January this year, mask up on trains and in offices and get back to it until it has been figured out how to make option A less damaging then return to the vote again.

This would at least make the rubber hit the road for mask enthusiasts. Is our faith in them good enough to endure a daily ride on the Victoria line at usual crowding levels, or are they in fact just a happy placebo for the odd journey on trains where only window seats are allowed to be used?

 

[WesternBiker]

In my organisation working from home is widely permitted but until now was not extensive. Those that did would either only do one day a week, although exceptions exist with some people officially classed as home workers.

That pretty much sums up my workplace: from now on, it looks as though 2-3 days a week at home will be the norm. Lockdown has demonstrated how feasible it is. I miss contact with (some of!) my colleagues but don't miss the daily grind from Wimbledon to Vauxhall...

I do wonder what the economics of commuter-dominated franchises will look like from now on, though.

 

[takno]

I was going to hold my tongue on my idea because I thought it was a bit too mad, but then I saw your proposal to turn all of central London's offices into housing, so how about the following referendum (in the absence of a vaccine)?

A) Do we want to see X units of social and economic ruin from the destruction of hundreds of thousands/millions of jobs overnight and the hollowing out of every city in the country, and enforce an increased tax rate of Y for Z years on all remaining in employment to pay for it; or
B) Pass a law to return all home working arrangements to as they were on 1 January this year, mask up on trains and in offices and get back to it until it has been figured out how to make option A less damaging then return to the vote again.

This would at least make the rubber hit the road for mask enthusiasts. Is our faith in them good enough to endure a daily ride on the Victoria line at usual crowding levels, or are they in fact just a happy placebo for the odd journey on trains where only window seats are allowed to be used?

I'm sure I'm not the only person not willing under any circumstances to go back to an office if there was mandatory mask-wearing there, so that could be slightly counter-productive. Let's not drag the whole mask debate into another thread though

 

[big_rig]

I'm sure I'm not the only person not willing under any circumstances to go back to an office if there was mandatory mask-wearing there, so that could be slightly counter-productive. Let's not drag the whole mask debate into another thread though

Quite. Substitute that for a Dyson fan at every desk or whatever other tech gizmo assumption for the sake of it to keep this one on track!

In any case I fear the answer will be C) WFH takes off, cities and transport becomes hollowed out and miserable, at some point in the next decade or so the pendulum swings and people remember that there is in fact a reason we live and work in cities and we go and spend an awful lot of money to make them less horrible and somewhere desirable again. Cue a lost decade.

 

[philosopher]

There's a housing shortage, so the obvious answer is conversion - quality conversion, not cheap-rubbish conversion as we've seen so far. Non-car-owning young people would love it at the right price. Might we see genuinely affordable homes in central London perhaps?

I have seen this solution a few times before and I think it could work, but I am not 100% convinced. I have two main issues with it. First I do not think most offices will make good flats, most offices have deep floor plans, so natural light will be a problem. This could be solved by knocking down offices and replacing them purpose built flats, but that is obviously very costly.

The second one is that in the UK at least, one of the biggest attractions of living in the city centre or inner city is a short commute. Obviously WFH mostly removes that benefit of city centre living. Therefore planners and developers will have to increase the appeal of city centres in other ways, such as promoting culture in city centres. I think with some effort this can be done, the centres of Paris and Rome seem to have few offices (at least this is the impression I have got when visiting) but are nonetheless seem desirable places to live.

 

[takno]

I have seen this solution a few times before and I think it could work, but I am not 100% convinced. I have two main issues with it. First I do not think most offices will make good flats, most offices have deep floor plans, so natural light will be a problem. This could be solved by knocking down offices and replacing them purpose built flats, but that is obviously very costly.

The second one is that in the UK at least, one of the biggest attractions of living in the city centre or inner city is a short commute. Obviously WFH mostly removes that benefit of city centre living. Therefore planners and developers will have to increase the appeal of city centres in other ways, such as promoting culture in city centres. I think with some effort this can be done, the centres of Paris and Rome seem to have few offices (at least this is the impression I have got when visiting) but are nonetheless seem desirable places to live.

We don't have culture in residential areas in Britain because people are absolutely phobic about noise. The result is that huge swathes of culture are already being swept away as flats encroach ever further into town centres and former commercial areas. If you start systematically turning central offices into flats you can pretty much wave goodbye to it all forever.

 

[mildertduck]

I'm actually moving from 100% home working to having an office, because meeting clients at home can't be done in a COVID-secure way very easily, and my partner classes as vulnerable. I also know a company which is moving to bigger premises so that they can get more staff in when social distanced, so I suspect there is a future for offices yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm actually moving from 100% home working to having an office, because meeting clients at home can't be done in a COVID-secure way very easily, and my partner classes as vulnerable. I also know a company which is moving to bigger premises so that they can get more staff in when social distanced, so I suspect there is a future for offices yet.

I certainly think there's a future for them, I just don't think that future involves people commuting to them to work 7.5 hours per day, 5 days per week, the future is a much more flexible one in my view.