Religion

[Springs Branch]

I don't believe in a great invisible sky fairy, but I do appreciate the important role of religion in developing the richness of our culture over the centuries. Even if religion has generally involved the "powers that be" of the time hijacking and manipulating an ancestral history and moral handbook of a bronze-age desert tribe (i.e. the Bible) to suit their own purposes.

As well as the view "religion just causes wars/arguments", the other side of the coin is religion's role in catalysing some of the greatest cultural, artistic and monumental human achievements of the past. This does not just apply to Christianity, of course.

- Without religion, would we have magnificent buildings like York Minster, Lincoln Cathedral and St Peter's Basilica if these were just the local town halls, tax office or even royal palaces?

- Would we have illuminated manuscripts like the Lindisfarne Gospels or Book of Kells if the scribes were just writing the biography of the local king?

- Would Handel have composed such a stirring Coronation Anthem without Zadok, Nathan or King Solomon, or if the music were just for a new king's signing-in ceremony?

 

[Trog]

Is bringing up children in a faith so they are indoctrinated before they are old enough to decide for themselves a form of child abuse?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Religion just causes wars/arguments.

Wars and arguments are two totally different matters, as well you know.

What was the religion do you think, if any, was behind the Third Reich?

 

[me123]

What was the religion do you think, if any, was behind the Third Reich?

Nazi Germany was a Christian country and aligned itself behind the protestant churches, although there was no particular Christian motivation behind their atrocities. Nazi Germany did, however, also discriminate widely against many other religious groups - most notably Judaism, but also other groups such as Jehovah's Witnesses and atheists.

 

[Harbornite]

Not all wars are caused by religion.

 

[DarloRich]

Not all wars are caused by religion.

but religion causes all wars

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I broadly agree with most that the other "no" voters have said. One of the big problems I have with religion is the idea that if an all-powerful, all-seeing supreme being existed, that that being would actually give a flying fork whether I or any other life-form worships them or not.

How could anything be so powerful yet still so insecure?

 

[Harbornite]

How could anything be so powerful yet still so insecure?

Are you talking about god or women?






I'll get my coat...

 

[DarloRich]

I broadly agree with most that the other "no" voters have said. One of the big problems I have with religion is the idea that if an all-powerful, all-seeing supreme being existed, that that being would actually give a flying fork whether I or any other life-form worships them or not.

How could anything be so powerful yet still so insecure?

or why, if god exists, does he allow me to doubt him. Free will seems like such a cop out when considering the almighty. With one swipe of his hand he could make us all worship him. Why does he allow us doubters? Why does he not smite me for my apostasy and heresy? In the Old Testament God did lots of the smiting. Why has he stopped?

Why did he send his only son to live with us and save us from our sins during the mid to late Roman period? Why not during the greatest mechanised slaughter of all time during the first world war? Why did he not come to stop the Nazis liquidating millions in death camps?

Why does he not show himself to us to prove he exists? it is all very convenient. I guess he must be very busy.

 

[Harbornite]

or why, if god exists, does he allow me to doubt him. Free will seems like such a cop out when considering the almighty. With one swipe of his hand he could make us all worship him. Why does he allow us doubters? Why does he not smite me for my apostasy and heresy? In the Old Testament God did lots of the smiting. Why has he stopped?

Perhaps god turned boring because he felt guilty after flooding earth? We need him to come back and flood the middle East, ISIS would probably enjoy such an event!

 

[me123]

- Without religion, would we have magnificent buildings like York Minster, Lincoln Cathedral and St Peter's Basilica if these were just the local town halls, tax office or even royal palaces?

- Would we have illuminated manuscripts like the Lindisfarne Gospels or Book of Kells if the scribes were just writing the biography of the local king?

- Would Handel have composed such a stirring Coronation Anthem without Zadok, Nathan or King Solomon, or if the music were just for a new king's signing-in ceremony?

Religion did have a near monopoly on art for several hundred years - in some cases, it was indeed illegal at least frowned upon to compose music that was not dedicated to god.

But it's not easy to say that art would not have flourished without religion. Religion was the single biggest consumer of art in all its forms, by far. But it may well have been the case that it would have flourished otherwise. Our world would undoubtedly be culturally much poorer without Handel's Messiah, the beautiful ceiling of the Cappella Sistina and the architectural wonder of Yorkminster. But musicians would still compose music, artists would still paint and of course architects would still be needed to design buildings. It's not necessarily true that, without religion, we wouldn't have a similarly spectacular cultural history. More secular societies existed around the world and also developed similar artistic cultures independently, and not necessarily with religion.

Where the arts flourished under religion though, it was science that suffered. Galileo was subject to an inquisition from the Vatican for stating that the Earth is not the centre of the universe - a statement that we know today to be true. When the Church was powerful, science was expected to support the Biblical view, rather than being allowed to independently observe reality. In America, some Christians are still pushing for the teaching of literal biblical creationism as science, again something we now know not to be true.

There have been, and still are, many people who put religion in conflict with science. Religion was used (and still is by many) to fill in the gaps in our knowledge - the creation myths of various religions being the most obvious example. We all long to know where we came from, and religion provided quite easy answers to this question. But we now know that these stories are just that. This puts religion at odds with science in the minds of many.

So, where the arts may well have benefited from religion, there is no doubt in my mind that scientific advances suffered at its hand.
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Why does he not show himself to us to prove he exists? it is all very convenient. I guess he must be very busy.

Deuteronomy 6:16 states:

"You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah."

It's a very convenient way out of disproving a deity. If it cannot be tested, it cannot be demonstrated to exist. Of course, from the scientific perspective, I would say that it's not required to disprove deity, rather the onus of proof lies with those who are making the claim that a god does exist. So I have no need to disprove religion, in the same way that I have no need to disprove the existence of unicorns or a teapot floating somewhere in space.

 

[backontrack]

I'm actually quite pleasantly surprised that we've talked about so many deep, profound and complex issues on RailUK recently. It's good to see that people can put Voyagers and Pacers, DOO and Red Pen out of their minds just for a second to talk about the big issues, and it helps to paint the rail community in a more positive light.

As for the 'religion causes wars' argument, I would say that people cause wars, but that some versions of religion don't help their case. I have big problems with how the Abrahamic Faiths treat women, for example, and I think that you'll find very few people who talk about all that stuff in the Old Testament (such as Abraham nearly killing his son and those weird bits about castration - that's mad, Ted!). As views change, views of what some of the text means change, and it's a pity that, although most of it seems to be metaphorical, people still take it literally - to the extreme a lot of the time. That we have extremist groups in today's society is a bit disappointing, but I wouldn't put it entirely down to religion - it's more the case that there are idiotic people who enjoy bringing pain to others. However, I would still like to make the case that many of these religions haven't exactly helped themselves.

 

[Harbornite]

I'm actually quite pleasantly surprised that we've talked about so many deep, profound and complex issues on RailUK recently. It's good to see that people can put Voyagers and Pacers, DOO and Red Pen out of their minds just for a second to talk about the big issues, and it helps to paint the rail community in a more positive light.

As for the 'religion causes wars' argument, I would say that people cause wars, but that some versions of religion don't help their case. I have big problems with how the Abrahamic Faiths treat women, for example, and I think that you'll find very few people who talk about all that stuff in the Old Testament (such as Abraham nearly killing his son and those weird bits about castration - that's mad, Ted!). As views change, views of what some of the text means change, and it's a pity that, although most of it seems to be metaphorical, people still take it literally - to the extreme a lot of the time. That we have extremist groups in today's society is a bit disappointing, but I wouldn't put it entirely down to religion - it's more the case that there are idiotic people who enjoy bringing pain to others. However, I would still like to make the case that many of these religions haven't exactly helped themselves.

Some good points there, I agree that religion isn't the direct cause because intelligent people who don't have mental issues are able to understand religious texts without interpreting them literally and using them to bring pain to others, as you have put it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

or why, if god exists, does he allow me to doubt him.

I would have thought the answer to that is obvious. If God exists and if that God is all-powerful, then it would appear that he doesn't think it particularly matters whether you believe in him (or perhaps he thinks it does matter, but there is some more important considerations. Free will perhaps? ).

Free will seems like such a cop out when considering the almighty.

Really? Seems a pretty good argument to me.

With one swipe of his hand he could make us all worship him. Why does he allow us doubters? Why does he not smite me for my apostasy and heresy? In the Old Testament God did lots of the smiting. Why has he stopped?

That is a fairly strong argument that suggests that the particular account of God given in parts of the Old Testament is not correct, but it doesn't contradict the possibility of God existing.

 

[Harbornite]

That is a fairly strong argument that suggests that the particular account of God given in parts of the Old Testament is not correct, but it doesn't contradict the possibility of God existing.

No, but neither does any of it prove the existence of god. As mentioned earlier, it's basically the teapot in space theory.

 

[Butts]

My word the "fires of hell" are being well and truly stoked in anticipation of receipt of all the heretics and blasphemers coming out of the closet on this thread

 

[Harbornite]

I would have thought the answer to that is obvious. If God exists and if that God is all-powerful, then it would appear that he doesn't think it particularly matters whether you believe in him (or perhaps he thinks it does matter, but there is some more important considerations. Free will perhaps? ).

So why, according to the bible, is good obsessed with us worshiping him? Anyway, that's a pretty poor argument to try and prove god's existence

https://www.openbible.info/topics/worship_of_false_gods
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My word the "fires of hell" are being well and truly stoked in anticipation of receipt of all the heretics and blasphemers coming out of the closet on this thread

Many followers of this forum are already aware of hellfire so would probably be alright in the company of the devil! Speaking of which, I should have added "devil worship" as one of the poll options, but I doubt that there are any serious worshipers of him on here.

 

[Butts]

So why, according to the bible, is good obsessed with us worshiping him? Anyway, that's a pretty poor argument to try and prove god's existence

https://www.openbible.info/topics/worship_of_false_gods
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Many followers of this forum are already aware of hellfire so would probably be alright in the company of the devil!. Speaking of which, I should have added "devli worship" as one of the poll options, but I doubt that there are any serious worshipers of him on here.

Agreed, "devli worship"

 

[backontrack]

I might steer well clear of this thread if you don't mind - compulsory R.S GCSE is bad enough already, and we all have to attend the lessons whether we're doing it or not..

 

[me123]

I would have thought the answer to that is obvious. If God exists and if that God is all-powerful, then it would appear that he doesn't think it particularly matters whether you believe in him (or perhaps he thinks it does matter, but there is some more important considerations. Free will perhaps? ).

That would seem sensible, but the Old Testament is filled with god's attempts to create a world that seems to basically be North Korea, where people do nothing but praise Dear Leader from dawn until dusk. The first four of the ten commandments, for example, relate purely to worshiping him and no-one else. What I would consider to be the most important one, "Thou shalt not kill", doesn't get mentioned until number 6. The god of the old testament forced Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, stopping him only at the last minute after he had proven his unwavering loyalty - you'd have to be sociopathic to do something like that.

God created a whole universe to house one small planet. One species of animal (human) was created in his image, for the sole purpose of worshiping him. And if you don't worship him, you're going to burn in hell forever. If you do worship him, you can spend eternity in heaven... continuing to worship him. The whole thing is psychotic.

For an all knowing and all powerful being, the god of the old testament makes some pretty odd choices. Why would an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipresent God make so many mistakes that he would need to eradicate all of humanity in a colossal global flood (aside from one family and a few billion animals on a big wooden boat)?

The free will argument is really a bit of a cop-out, and it doesn't work. If God is eternal and omniscient (as is stated in the bible), he will know everything that has happened, everything that is happening and everything is going to happen. He would know what we are going to do. He would know if we are going to do wrong. He has the power to stop us doing wrong (for he is omnipotent), but will not exercise this power, preferring instead to allow some horrible things to happen, sending us the eternal punishment of hell only after we have sinned.

 

[Harbornite]

That would seem sensible, but the Old Testament is filled with god's attempts to create a world that seems to basically be North Korea, where people do nothing but praise Dear Leader from dawn until dusk. The first four of the ten commandments, for example, relate purely to worshiping him and no-one else. What I would consider to be the most important one, "Thou shalt not kill", doesn't get mentioned until number 6. The god of the old testament forced Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, stopping him only at the last minute after he had proven his unwavering loyalty - you'd have to be sociopathic to do something like that.

The ten commandments are a bit flawed. Thou shall not kill is fine but the commandment about coveting your neighbour's wife's ass is irrelevant. Where's the commandments about respecting women and not abusing children?

 

[DarloRich]

I would have thought the answer to that is obvious. If God exists and if that God is all-powerful, then it would appear that he doesn't think it particularly matters whether you believe in him (or perhaps he thinks it does matter, but there is some more important considerations. Free will perhaps? ).



Really? Seems a pretty good argument to me.

Free will is a religious cop out to explain why I don't believe in god.

Why does god, if he exists, allow his creation to doubt him? If he is all powerful why does he create me the way I am? Why would he not seek to have us all clones with unquestioning devotion?

That is a fairly strong argument that suggests that the particular account of God given in parts of the Old Testament is not correct, but it doesn't contradict the possibility of God existing.

So the manual is wrong?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Which bits can i believe? The small print clearly states that if I decide at death to repent my sins and accept the word of our lord Jesus Christ into my soul I will be welcomed into heaven. Could this be untrue? My entire plan is at risk!

The trumpets and the smiting and the begetting are my favorite bits - you tell me it isn't true? Why would God allow his life story to be presented in such a cack handed and inaccurate fashion. It doesn't say much for his control.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I might steer well clear of this thread if you don't mind - compulsory R.S GCSE is bad enough already, and we all have to attend the lessons whether we're doing it or not..

Yes, I can see from the above post that you are definitely succeeding in steering well clear of this thread!

 

[backontrack]

Yes, I can see from the above post that you are definitely succeeding in steering well clear of this thread!

I am, aren't I?


EDIT - wait a minute...

 

[me123]

The ten commandments are a bit flawed. Thou shall not kill is fine but the commandment about coveting your neighbour's wife's ass is irrelevant.

"Thou shalt not covet [anything]" is essentially thought crime. God gives us free will, but you're going to hell if you ever feel jealousy.

Where's the commandments about respecting women and not abusing children?

They had to be removed to make room for "worship me on Sunday".

 

[Harbornite]

"Thou shalt not covet [anything]" is essentially thought crime. God gives us free will, but you're going to hell if you ever feel jealousy.



They had to be removed to make room for "worship me on Sunday".

This is why I feel that religion is irrelevant. In some cases, people are comforted by the thought of heaven and god because they are scared of their mortality, which is a fair enough. Nevertheless, it's outlived its purpose.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Free will is a religious cop out to explain why I don't believe in god.

Why does god, if he exists, allow his creation to doubt him? If he is all powerful why does he create me the way I am? Why would he not seek to have us all clones with unquestioning devotion?

Sounds like you have a very definite idea of the kind of God that you don't believe in By a strange coincidence, I don't believe in that kind of God either!

As for, being a clone. Would you want to be a clone with no free will? I know I wouldn't want to be. If your answer to that is also, 'no', then - perhaps that gives some clue of a possible reason why a God might have created beings that have free will and the capacity to doubt him. So I don't think free will is a cop-out at all.

I'm slightly amused that after I explicitly made the remark, That is a fairly strong argument that suggests that the particular account of God given in parts of the Old Testament is not correct, which you'd have thought would give a pretty strong clue that I perhaps don't give too much credence to certain parts of the Old Testament, no less than three people have replied to me, apparently asking me to justify what the Old Testament says!

 

[Harbornite]

I'm slightly amused that after I explicitly made the remark, That is a fairly strong argument that suggests that the particular account of God given in parts of the Old Testament is not correct, which you'd have thought would give a pretty strong clue that I perhaps don't give too much credence to certain parts of the Old Testament, no less than three people have replied to me, apparently asking me to justify what the Old Testament says!

I think the point being made is that it's odd to live by some religious teachings while disregarding others from the same source. That's just cherry-picking.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm actually quite pleasantly surprised that we've talked about so many deep, profound and complex issues on RailUK recently. It's good to see that people can put Voyagers and Pacers, DOO and Red Pen out of their minds just for a second to talk about the big issues, and it helps to paint the rail community in a more positive light.

As for the 'religion causes wars' argument, I would say that people cause wars, but that some versions of religion don't help their case. I have big problems with how the Abrahamic Faiths treat women, for example, and I think that you'll find very few people who talk about all that stuff in the Old Testament (such as Abraham nearly killing his son and those weird bits about castration - that's mad, Ted!). As views change, views of what some of the text means change, and it's a pity that, although most of it seems to be metaphorical, people still take it literally - to the extreme a lot of the time. That we have extremist groups in today's society is a bit disappointing, but I wouldn't put it entirely down to religion - it's more the case that there are idiotic people who enjoy bringing pain to others. However, I would still like to make the case that many of these religions haven't exactly helped themselves.

I think the first paragraph here says it all: Would a just God allow Voyagers or Pacers to exist?

 

[trainmania100]

I believe that Jesus existeds
But I don't believe in gods...and all that universe creationism stuff...which makes no sense whatsoever