Rejected UPFN appeal with a valid ticket

[Greenback]

I may be wrong in thinking of an UPFN in the same way as a penalty fare, which some people do write off as they can't be bothered jumping through the hoops that exist to try and get it cancelled. In fact, I've just had a word with myself and told myself that I am wrong!

I still think that collecting from a TVM can be too much of a lottery though!

 

[Flamingo]

No, a penalty fare is the £20 or double the fare on-the-spot charge.

An Unpaid Fares Notice (UPFN) is like an invoice that the passenger has 10 days to pay or dispute (e.g. send off the collected ticket). The passenger can partially pay, but no money has to change hands when the notice is being issued. It is usually issued as the full open fare between A and B. Except in special circumstances it is only supposed to be issued to the next manned station. We ring to confirm the name and address of the person it is being issued to.

They are taken to court for non-payment, I have a few going through the system at the moment.

(The above is not intended to be an exhaustive guide to UPFN's, just a quick explanation of the system, before anybody says I've missed anything)

 

[Greenback]

I knew I was wrong! So is it fair to say that if I had been unable to print out my Advance ticket at Llanelli for the 0804 to London (due to the touch screen not working as it frequently seems to be!) you would issue me with an 'invoice' for the whole full fare? Or would it be just to Swansea and I'd be expected to try again there?

 

[Flamingo]

It would be for the whole journey (if that's what you wanted), as it would count as a special case. It would be for the full open, although obviously the ticket you printed would not have to be a full open, just valid for the journey you made.

 

[ph1985]

It would be for the whole journey (if that's what you wanted), as it would count as a special case. It would be for the full open, although obviously the ticket you printed would not have to be a full open, just valid for the journey you made.

You make it sound as though it is a very easy process, when really it is not and the first time you send the ticket off it will almost certainly be rejected. In my case at least it was made out to be in the form of a penalty.

I see no reason why common sense can't be used in these situations. If you can call up to validate someone's name, you can call up to validate their booking reference against that name. It's just pure money grabbing by the TOCs and serves them more harm than good. I for one will from now on be recommending that the 20 people in my division go from Paddington and change at Reading from now on instead of using SWT when we have business in the Southampton area. It is a small time penalty and i am sure there are others who feel as aggrieved towards them....but then on the other hand you have to think they are all as bad as each other as they have a monopoly on each line.

 

[b0b]

Flamingo calls to check the details to issue the UPFN - surely they should be able to confirm the status of the booking reference and if the tickets show uncollected, print them off right there and then.

Wait, that's too sensible

 

[Flamingo]

Different system to validate tickets. Also, what's to stop someone then printing off the ticket and either giving it to someone else, or just sending it back for a refund as unused. Also, on-board, all I can print is tickets for sale there and then.

Anyway, you are misunderstanding the role of the Guard. My primary role is the safe and prompt running of the train, not sorting out tickets for people who in a large proportion of cases simply can't be bothered to get their act together. Tickets are what Guards do when there is nothing more important or interesting happening.

It's no good coming up with "In an ideal world...", and "You should be able to..." scenarios. If you want to do that, write to ATOC and your MP's, to the former suggest the improvement and put a business case for it, and to the latter ask if they will lobby the Treasury to fund it. The railway companies are private companies, they are not going to implement anything unless they can see a cost benefit to them. At least the TOC's are not Ryanair, and insisting you have to use an obscure credit card or they'll charge you for wanting to buy a ticket!
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You make it sound as though it is a very easy process, when really it is not and the first time you send the ticket off it will almost certainly be rejected. In my case at least it was made out to be in the form of a penalty.

I see no reason why common sense can't be used in these situations. If you can call up to validate someone's name, you can call up to validate their booking reference against that name. It's just pure money grabbing by the TOCs and serves them more harm than good. I for one will from now on be recommending that the 20 people in my division go from Paddington and change at Reading from now on instead of using SWT when we have business in the Southampton area. It is a small time penalty and i am sure there are others who feel as aggrieved towards them....but then on the other hand you have to think they are all as bad as each other as they have a monopoly on each line.

Well, tell them to pick up their ticket before travelling or they will have to sort out the UPFN's. As I have said, I am only commenting for my TOC, but I have not been aware of any problems getting UPFN's cancelled in these situations when the contact has been made within 10 days. Has anybody else heard of FGW (not SWT or Virgin or XC) refusing to cancel UPFN's issued in these circumstances?

 

[Greenback]

It would be for the whole journey (if that's what you wanted), as it would count as a special case. It would be for the full open, although obviously the ticket you printed would not have to be a full open, just valid for the journey you made.

Thanks for the clarification!

You make it sound as though it is a very easy process, when really it is not and the first time you send the ticket off it will almost certainly be rejected. In my case at least it was made out to be in the form of a penalty.

I see no reason why common sense can't be used in these situations. If you can call up to validate someone's name, you can call up to validate their booking reference against that name. It's just pure money grabbing by the TOCs and serves them more harm than good. I for one will from now on be recommending that the 20 people in my division go from Paddington and change at Reading from now on instead of using SWT when we have business in the Southampton area. It is a small time penalty and i am sure there are others who feel as aggrieved towards them....but then on the other hand you have to think they are all as bad as each other as they have a monopoly on each line.

Flamingo is talking about UPFN's not PF's, which is the mistake I made earlier on!

Well, tell them to pick up their ticket before travelling or they will have to sort out the UPFN's. As I have said, I am only commenting for my TOC, but I have not been aware of any problems getting UPFN's cancelled in these situations when the contact has been made within 10 days. Has anybody else heard of FGW (not SWT or Virgin or XC) refusing to cancel UPFN's issued in these circumstances?

That brings us neatly back to the OP, which was all about being unable to print the tickets, rather than unwilling!