Regulation at Castlefield Junction

[Boysteve]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge how trains are prioritised at Castlefield junction? We all know that the Castlefield Corridor is congested but my feeling is that services from the CLC are not treated fairly!
What seems to happen is that Freightliner services from Trafford Park arrive at the protecting signal early and wait for their turn across Castlefield Junction. However, at the scheduled time priority is given to passenger services that are either late running, or even due to cross the junction AFTER the Freightliner service! This means that the XX19 Liverpool Lime Street to Oxford Road and East Midlands service get held in the Cornbrook area. As I type 2093 has been delayed by 17 minutes and will not reach Oxford Road before it should have already departed back to Liverpool, despite running on time all the way from Liverpool to Cornbrook! Similar with the East Midlands service which will now cause pathing problems at Piccadilly, Stockport, Dore and Totley etc etc.
It seems the signallers that enforce a delay to the Freighliner service fail to 'see' the 2 passenger services behind. I just wondered the reasons for this.

 

[scrapy]

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge how trains are prioritised at Castlefield junction? We all know that the Castlefield Corridor is congested but my feeling is that services from the CLC are not treated fairly!
What seems to happen is that Freightliner services from Trafford Park arrive at the protecting signal early and wait for their turn across Castlefield Junction. However, at the scheduled time priority is given to passenger services that are either late running, or even due to cross the junction AFTER the Freightliner service! This means that the XX19 Liverpool Lime Street to Oxford Road and East Midlands service get held in the Cornbrook area. As I type 2093 has been delayed by 17 minutes and will not reach Oxford Road before it should have already departed back to Liverpool, despite running on time all the way from Liverpool to Cornbrook! Similar with the East Midlands service which will now cause pathing problems at Piccadilly, Stockport, Dore and Totley etc etc.
It seems the signallers that enforce a delay to the Freighliner service fail to 'see' the 2 passenger services behind. I just wondered the reasons for this.

I've actually been told off network rail that the opposite applies and the freight train will generally be given priority as running it late has too many other implications elsewhere. Northerns Southport to Manchester Airport was a 'victim' of this pre May 18 as it was generally held both ways when the freight was a few min late. It was Northerns worst performing route purely down to being held for the freight.

 

[DarloRich]

It seems the signallers that enforce a delay to the Freighliner service fail to 'see' the 2 passenger services behind. I just wondered the reasons for this.

because the freight may be more important than the passenger train. I always say this and I think people find it a hard concept to grasp.

I know being delayed for a freight train is frustrating ( it often happens to me in the morning) but delaying the freight train may have more knock on damage to punctuality.

 

[Ianno87]

because the freight may be more important than the passenger train. I always say this and I think people find it a hard concept to grasp.

I know being delayed for a freight train is frustrating ( it often happens to me in the morning) but delaying the freight train may have more knock on damage to punctuality.

From observation, the Piccadilly signallers seem quite skilled in not stopping freight trains anywhere in the Piccadilly area - the time to stop and restart a freight train in such a critical area would be enormous and eisky.

Perhaps the freight is being held at Castlefield until it can be given a good 'run' through Oxford Road?

 

[Boysteve]

From observation, the Piccadilly signallers seem quite skilled in not stopping freight trains anywhere in the Piccadilly area - the time to stop and restart a freight train in such a critical area would be enormous and eisky.

Perhaps the freight is being held at Castlefield until it can be given a good 'run' through Oxford Road?

Thanks, this may well be the reason.
However, at what point are the services behind the Freightliner considered? Unfortunately today the 08:52 EM Liverpool - Norwich was delayed 20 minutes despite running on time to Trafford Park, it then got further delayed as the Hope Valley stopper went ahead first at New Mills Junction. It was 36 late into Sheffield and will cause problems all the way to Norwich now! Who funds all of the delay repay money?

 

[Tomnick]

On the face of it, the sequence of events today makes little sense! The freight was 16 minutes early past Trafford Park East Jn (no drama there as it was the next train in that direction). As it would’ve been stopping at Castlefield’s protecting signal, two slightly late running trains for the Airport passed, then nothing for 14 minutes until a Southport - Picc (which should’ve followed the freight) passed a minute early. There should’ve been two TPE trains past in that 14 minute window, one of which was cancelled and the other diverted direct to Picc. Could the ARS (or the signalman) have been waiting for that diverted train to show up? Either way, it’s the same poor show that we’re all used to from that establishment - the Norwich delayed by 17 minutes by the time it cleared Picc, subsequently 36’ late into Sheffield having caught up the Hope Valley stopped that it should’ve preceded, then behind the Northern semi-fast with its extra calls and thus 45’ late into Notts. All entirely avoidable, and all too common.

because the freight may be more important than the passenger train. I always say this and I think people find it a hard concept to grasp.

I know being delayed for a freight train is frustrating ( it often happens to me in the morning) but delaying the freight train may have more knock on damage to punctuality.

The other way around - the freight was held coming off the CLC despite being early away from the terminal, with a stopping passenger and a long-distance express trapped behind it.

 

[DarloRich]

The other way around - the freight was held coming off the CLC despite being early away from the terminal, with a stopping passenger and a long-distance express trapped behind it

ok - sounds like someone dropped the ball then!

 

[Killingworth]

Whatever the reason I can relate that at a recent East Midlands stakeholder briefing we were told that 25% of all their delays were attributable to the hourly Liverpool - Norwich service. Considering they run half hourly services from Sheffield to St Pancras and almost as frequent from Nottingham, plus a host of smaller routes, that's quite a statistic.

As an occasional user I don't find it fair.

Castlefield congestion and its knock-on effects are a significant part in that. Sitting in the queue is a normal feature, good for viewing the Roman remains.

The statistics for Liverpool - Sheffield taken from Recent Train Times make grim reading; Last 12 weeks performance, Liverpool - Sheffield

 

[LowLevel]

Turn up at Castlefield on time or early from the Warrington direction. Sit waiting while a procession of late runners are allowed through in booked order from/to Ordsall Lane/Piccadilly. Be delayed 20 minutes. Lose your path everywhere else. Accept that this is your lot in life like the traincrew and regular passengers on the route.

 

[Ianno87]

Thanks, this may well be the reason.
However, at what point are the services behind the Freightliner considered? Unfortunately today the 08:52 EM Liverpool - Norwich was delayed 20 minutes despite running on time to Trafford Park, it then got further delayed as the Hope Valley stopper went ahead first at New Mills Junction. It was 36 late into Sheffield and will cause problems all the way to Norwich now! Who funds all of the delay repay money?

The EMT does have a fair amount of pathing/performance time around Nottingham and Grantham, plus a long dwell at Nottingham even allowing for splitting - it can recover a decent amount of lateness to be on time when joining the ECML.

 

[Boysteve]

The EMT does have a fair amount of pathing/performance time around Nottingham and Grantham, plus a long dwell at Nottingham even allowing for splitting - it can recover a decent amount of lateness to be on time when joining the ECML.

Well maybe in theory, however today the service in question was canned at Ely still 50 minutes late.

 

[Mathew S]

Using the Castlefield corridor twice a day, as I do, policy by and large seems to be to run things through in the booked order. Or, where trains are too delayed for that, delayed services take priority over on time ones.
Whilst I'm sure the signallers are doing their best, it does seem obtuse to delay otherwise on time services for a delayed train.
A good example is was this evening when an Airport - Barrow (on time) Northern service arrived at the Picc throat at the same time as the approx. 10 mins late Norwich - Liverpool. Allowing the already delayed EMT service through first caused the Barrow train to be delayed behind a Chat Moss stopping service, when it didn't need to be.

I know the signallers can't win whatever they do, because the only real solution is to rebuild and add capacity, but it is unbelievably frustrating as a passenger.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think it is human nature to feel that the service you are on has been hard done by, whichever direction you approach the junction from.

On Monday 22 July I was on a Blackpool to Hazel Grove service that was scheduled through the junction at 1839. We departed Salford Crescent on time, but were 15L at Deansgate! First we were held for 3 minutes before Ordsall Lane Junction, to allow the late running TPE Glasgow to Airport, which had been diverted via Golborne, to overtake. Then we moved up to the signal before Castlefield Junction and sat there for 8 minutes, watching the CLC services being given priority through the junction ahead of us. First the Lime Street to Oxford Road stopper, then a late running TPE Airport to York in the opposite direction, then the Liverpool to Norwich. While the Norwich service was waiting for the TPE to clear the junction, we could have been allowed to nip through ahead of it!

From RTT I see that, on that occasion, the freight left Trafford Park early and cleared Castlefield Junction before the stopper got to Cornbrook.

 

[AK1982]

Can anyone give me an idea as to what caused the delay this morning on northerns 07.09 service from lime street to Manchester oxford road?

It was on time until leaving Irlam and then proceeding to move slowly between signals all the way through to oxford road arriving 20 late.

In particular just before Castlefield junction it was held for. Good 10 minutes?

Anyone know the cause?

 

[Boysteve]

Can anyone give me an idea as to what caused the delay this morning on northerns 07.09 service from lime street to Manchester oxford road?
It was on time until leaving Irlam and then proceeding to move slowly between signals all the way through to oxford road arriving 20 late.
In particular just before Castlefield junction it was held for. Good 10 minutes?
Anyone know the cause?

3 reasons in total;

1) Well the proceeding service (07:23 stopper from Warrington Central) got gradually later and appears to have suffered extended station stops. I do not know why but one possibility could be additional boarding time that if it was short-formed. Anyway, both 2O42 and your service (1O42) were then 7 minutes late approaching Castlefield Junction.
2) Priority was given to a late running VT service diverted from the WCML and due to pick up the 07:55 slot ex-Piccadilly. The ex-Southport service running 48 Late was also then allowed to pass ahead too.
3) Classic Castlefield Corridor Congestion! The VT service for example passed Castlefield Jcn at 08:09 but did not reach Piccadilly until 08:23. The ex-Southport service was stopped at Deansgate for 3-4 minutes because the VT service still fouled the track circuits through Oxford Road. The throughput of Castlefield Junction was NOT the limiting factor but a lack of P15 and P16 at Piccadilly. Bye Bye Grayling you fool.

 

[Greybeard33]

3 reasons in total;

1) Well the proceeding service (07:23 stopper from Warrington Central) got gradually later and appears to have suffered extended station stops. I do not know why but one possibility could be additional boarding time that if it was short-formed. Anyway, both 2O42 and your service (1O42) were then 7 minutes late approaching Castlefield Junction.
2) Priority was given to a late running VT service diverted from the WCML and due to pick up the 07:55 slot ex-Piccadilly. The ex-Southport service running 48 Late was also then allowed to pass ahead too.
3) Classic Castlefield Corridor Congestion! The VT service for example passed Castlefield Jcn at 08:09 but did not reach Piccadilly until 08:23. The ex-Southport service was stopped at Deansgate for 3-4 minutes because the VT service still fouled the track circuits through Oxford Road. The throughput of Castlefield Junction was NOT the limiting factor but a lack of P15 and P16 at Piccadilly. Bye Bye Grayling you fool.

Additionally, the VT service was delayed in the corridor behind the preceding 2H02, Blackpool North to Hazel Grove, and 1U91, Barrow to Manchester Airport, respectively 9L and 7L at the junction. 2H02 had been trapped behind a late running all shacks stopper between Bolton and Salford Crescent, and then had extended dwells of 7 minutes at Oxford Road and 5 minutes at Piccadilly (don't know why), causing a queue to develop, tailing back through the corridor.

Delays would have been even worse but for the fortuitous diversion on to the Guide Bridge line of a TPE York to Manchester Airport service, 1P12, which was 12L at Stalybridge. Otherwise it too would have preceded 1O42 through the junction.