Refusing station entry due to trespassing?

[LeavesOnTracks]

Hi everyone,

I was enquiring about the legality of refusing a customer access to a station in the case of trespassing?

During Night Tube at some stations, certain parts of a station maybe closed off including exits. These exits are closed shut but not locked if staff need to use them on a regular basis. At times customers may decide to open these gates if they appear unlocked, ignore the sign posted informing them where the available entrance is and, enter the station to try to gain access to Night Tube services. These customers would ordinarily be advised the area they're in is closed and that they need to exit the station and enter at the correct entrance and escorted. There are rare occasions when a customer may refuse to leave or be very argumentative and leave only at the point of discussing BTP. I wondered if a customer (for example) ignored instructions three or more times but then left at the point of calling BTP (albeit resisting along the way) if they could actually be denied access for that particular Night Service at that station on the grounds of trespassing, being informed of this repeatedly and ignoring requests to leave? I get the impression sometimes customers think having a travel ticket means they own the underground and not that it's private property or that being in closed areas is trespassing and, that despite being informed about this may not pay much attention or notice in future. An inconvenience like a temporary access denial may help to be a deterrent but in either case I wonder if such an example would be legal?

 

[Snow1964]

If the trains are running, and have valid ticket, and you are in the passenger part of the station, (not a private / staff area) not quite sure how you can be trespassing.

If staff are too lazy to shut off and lock public parts of the station that they want to deem closed, then surely they can't magically be in the right, even if they take high handed approach it's their station and they can make up rules.

Nationally there must be about 1500 stations which are never locked, and nothing to stop you wandering onto platforms and sitting on a seat at 3am. Even if next train is hours away.

 

[DarloRich]

Are you "asking for a friend"?

 

[LeavesOnTracks]

If the trains are running, and have valid ticket, and you are in the passenger part of the station, (not a private / staff area) not quite sure how you can be trespassing.

If staff are too lazy to shut off and lock public parts of the station that they want to deem closed, then surely they can't magically be in the right, even if they take high handed approach it's their station and they can make up rules.

Nationally there must be about 1500 stations which are never locked, and nothing to stop you wandering onto platforms and sitting on a seat at 3am. Even if next train is hours away.

Trespassing because the area is closed. There are no trains running in these areas and there's no access to the Night Services because the usual routes are closed during Night Services.

I can't comment on the reason for exits not being locked except it appears to be a safety issue not a lazy one. Staff taxis operate at the closed end of the station. Personally I'd rather lock the exit (ongoing issue we're trying to resolve as it's a different group of staff) but this discussion maybe separate I think from the legality of denying access due to trespassing if they are aware of the fact.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==

Are you "asking for a friend"?

Exactly

 

[Snow1964]

I can't comment on the reason for exits not being locked except it appears to be a safety issue not a lazy one. Staff taxis operate at the closed end of the station.

I think you will find only authorised staff (not just any staff) are supposed to be in closed areas.

From memory there are are emergency releases so not a safety issue on all closed/emergency exits. (Happy to be corrected)

From what you describe sounds to me more laziness that can't be bothered to walk from a taxi area to main entrance so getting their mates to leave shorter side route wide open, rather than locking it and allowing only valid key holders to use it.

 

[zwk500]

Is this question about an LU station or an NR station, and do different laws and byelaws apply to LU than the general mainline rail network?

 

[LeavesOnTracks]

Is this question about an LU station or an NR station, and do different laws and byelaws apply to LU than the general mainline rail network?

LU

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==

I think you will find only authorised staff (not just any staff) are supposed to be in closed areas.

From memory there are are emergency releases so not a safety issue on all closed/emergency exits. (Happy to be corrected)

From what you describe sounds to me more laziness that can't be bothered to walk from a taxi area to main entrance so getting their mates to leave shorter side route wide open, rather than locking it and allowing only valid key holders to use it.

Possibly some stations. This one can only be opened from the inside but it can also be properly locked with a padlock and chain.

Safety, meaning incidents happening on the external route to the other entrance. Or that's the story being implied . It's pure nonsense to me.

 

[43066]

If the trains are running, and have valid ticket, and you are in the passenger part of the station, (not a private / staff area) not quite sure how you can be trespassing.

If you’ve been told to leave by a member of staff you can on NR stations. I imagine it’s the same on LU, because it’s private property.

Possibly some stations. This one can only be opened from the inside but it can also be properly locked with a padlock and chain.

Safety, meaning incidents happening on the external route to the other entrance. Or that's the story being implied . It's pure nonsense to me.

Presumably they don’t want to use padlocks and chains in case there’s a need to evacuate the part of the station that is in use and something blocks another entrance. That doesn’t seem unreasonable.

 

[Mawkie]

If you’ve been told to leave by a member of staff you can on NR stations. I imagine it’s the same on LU, because it’s private property.

It is the same on LU.

The LU Bylaws Section 13 seems to cover it well. .

CONTROL OF PREMISES
13. Unauthorised access and loitering
(1) No person shall enter, attempt to enter or remain on any part of the railway where there is a notice:
(i) prohibiting access; or
(ii) indicating that it is reserved or provided for a specified category of person only, except where he belongs to that specified category;
unless invited or directed to do so by an authorised person.
(2) No person shall loiter on the railway if asked to leave by an authorised person.
(3) No person whilst on the railway shall wilfully obstruct or impede any authorised person in the execution of his duty.
(4) No person above the age of ten years shall enter, attempt to enter or remain in any part of the railway which is marked or notified as being for the exclusive use of persons of the opposite gender to that person.

 

[43066]

It is the same on LU.

The LU Bylaws Section 13 seems to cover it well. .

Thanks - makes complete sense.

 

[zwk500]

Possibly some stations. This one can only be opened from the inside but it can also be properly locked with a padlock and chain.

Safety, meaning incidents happening on the external route to the other entrance. Or that's the story being implied . It's pure nonsense to me.

The solution would seem to be to get a proper lock fitted so that authorised people can access the route from both sides but it is clearly locked to non-authorised personnel.

 

[Mojo]

Padlocks and chains are not permitted when the station is open, or when trains are running through the location even if the station is closed (unless there is an adjacent exit that can be opened in an emergency).

 

[Mawkie]

I'm not sure why the OP didn't state the station involved, but LU stations have a Congestion Control and Evacuation Plan (CCEP). It's been a long time since I was on stations, but the CCEP takes account of lots of factors, but includes minimum staff numbers. Stations can be allowed to keep open with lower minimum numbers if an exit, or exits, are closed to public use - obviously this depends on the station and other factors in the CCEP. I suspect night tube stations run with fewer staff.

On a separate note, if the station concerned was for example Earl's Court, and the Warwick Road exit is closed, then that's quite a walk to the "main" entrance. Likewise at Seven Sisters. Likewise at Euston Square, and I'm sure many others.

The answer mentioned above is to secure the entry/exit concerned, but staff aren't typically given keys until they book on for duty - which of course requires them to be inside the station.

 

[LeavesOnTracks]

If you’ve been told to leave by a member of staff you can on NR stations. I imagine it’s the same on LU, because it’s private property.



Presumably they don’t want to use padlocks and chains in case there’s a need to evacuate the part of the station that is in use and something blocks another entrance. That doesn’t seem unreasonable.

That's what I thought initially, but then it's been said they should be locked when it gets out of hand with customers letting themselves into closed areas and when this is repeated to others the response is about staff being transported at that region. ‍♂️

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Oct 2024 ==

Padlocks and chains are not permitted when the station is open, or when trains are running through the location even if the station is closed (unless there is an adjacent exit that can be opened in an emergency).

Thank you. I think, that possibly solves why it's not locked. It is locked on Christmas but I doubt anything comes through the station then.

 

[43066]

That's what I thought initially, but then it's been said they should be locked when it gets out of hand with customers letting themselves into closed areas and when this is repeated to others the response is about staff being transported at that region. ‍♂️

It’s a question of managing risk I suppose. It must be awkward as many of the central London tube stations serve other closed lines, so will only partially open, and presumably have a much lower staff complement. I’m sure there are good reasons why physically locking/barricading entrances closed isn’t sensible.

But ultimately, as to your question in the OP, if people are refusing to follow your instructions and/or being obstreperous or intimidating, you’re quite within your rights to refuse then travel and have them removed from the network if you consider it necessary. If they attempt to re-enter, rinse and repeat!

 

[LeavesOnTracks]

It is the same on LU.

The LU Bylaws Section 13 seems to cover it well. .

Thank you!