Refused Off-Peak Day Return

[iamthekareem]

Last Friday morning I had to make a journey from London Liverpool Street upto Stansted airport, coming back later on in the evening.

I checked Greater Anglia and it showed a journey depart LST at 04.10am, and the next one being at 04.40am.

I noticed that the 04.10am was a lot cheaper and the website says the Network Railcard would be valid on this service, but not the 04.40am. I assume by this Off-Peak goes to 04.29am.

Figured I would by the ticket when I get to LST. Sadly, I lost my card and only had cash. Got to LST and tried to use the machine, but there was no option for Off-Peak, any day return, only Anytime and it would not apply the Network Railcard.

Went to the ticket off, again, the lady said it's Peak. I showed her the Greater Anglia website and she said it must be wrong and she can only sell tickets which the machines have. However, she said I can get the Anytime day return with the Network Railcard discount. Does this not prove that it's off-peak as you can not use the railcard before 10am.

I was left with no option to get the Anytime ticket for £20.75.

Am I in the right, or have I got my information wrong and the website is actually wrong? If I am right, I will write to Greater Anglia seeking a refund.

I think I am right, because at the end of the day, Greater Anglias site allows you to buy a network railcard discounted off peak day return for £14.90 and she sold me a ticket with a discount at 4.01am.

 

[Haywain]

I agree that the Off Peak Day Return was valid for travel but I don’t see how the railcard should have been valid as it was before 10:00.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

It sounds like she sold an Anytime Return with an outward date of Thursday rather than Friday.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It sounds like she sold an Anytime Return with an outward date of Thursday rather than Friday.

I'm not sure that any system will sell a ticket for the day prior.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It sounds like she sold an Anytime Return with an outward date of Thursday rather than Friday.

If that's the case, why not an Off Peak Day Return, with it being before 0429?

Presumably because if dated the previous railway day, it would have expired before the OP gets the chance to return, whereas the Anytime Return has longer validity.

 

[Haywain]

If that's the case, why not an Off Peak Day Return, with it being before 0429?

Presumably because if dated the previous railway day, it would have expired before the OP gets the chance to return, whereas the Anytime Return has longer validity.

An Off Peak Day Return is explicitly valid before 04:29 and later after 09:30, so would not need to be dated for the previous day.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

An Off Peak Day Return is explicitly valid before 04:29 and later after 09:30, so would not need to be dated for the previous day.

But could it have been issued with a Network Railcard discount at that time, unless dated the previous day?

If not, the (undiscounted) CDR would be £22.60, which is more than what the OP was actually charged, i.e. £20.75.

 

[Haywain]

But could it have been issued with a Network Railcard discount at that time, unless dated the previous day?

If not, the (undiscounted) CDR would be £22.60, which is more than what the OP was actually charged, i.e. £20.75.

I don’t believe either should have been sold with a Network Railcard discount.

 

[alistairlees]

Here's the £14.90 fare (Off-Peak Day Return with Network Railcard discount) for travel on the 04.10 Liverpool Street to Standsted Airport on Friday 11 February, returning later the same day. From the Greater Anglia website:

 

[AlterEgo]

As always, buy online. The site doesn’t argue with you and generates an itinerary.

 

[robbeech]

I know the restrictions are from 1000, but is there not a similar 0429 limit on these too?
What happens for a train At 0005? if you bought the ticket at 2355 on a Tuesday it would be valid with the discount but if you bought it at 0001 the ticket would be for Wednesday and as such the railcard isn’t valid.

Is this how it operates ?

 

[Coolzac]

As always, buy online. The site doesn’t argue with you and generates an itinerary.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I find it very depressing that it's actually easier and better to buy online than from a member of staff.

You would think that that with the threat of jobs on the railway being lost to ticket machines and automation, staff would go out of their way to be helpful. As it is, unfortunately a lot of staff are actively obstructive and make people's experience on the railway worse!

 

[furlong]

I know the restrictions are from 1000, but is there not a similar 0429 limit on these too?
What happens for a train At 0005? if you bought the ticket at 2355 on a Tuesday it would be valid with the discount but if you bought it at 0001 the ticket would be for Wednesday and as such the railcard isn’t valid.

Is this how it operates ?

I believe so. When I used to need to buy tickets at Paddington with a railcard discount after midnight, the TVMs wouldn't sell them, but the ticket office simply issued them dated the previous day without having to ask and without comment - just another routine and correct transaction, selling the most appropriate fare for the journey described.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

I know the restrictions are from 1000, but is there not a similar 0429 limit on these too?
What happens for a train At 0005? if you bought the ticket at 2355 on a Tuesday it would be valid with the discount but if you bought it at 0001 the ticket would be for Wednesday and as such the railcard isn’t valid.

Is this how it operates ?

If you look it up on brfares.com the Network Card restrictions are 0430-0959

 

[Class800]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I find it very depressing that it's actually easier and better to buy online than from a member of staff.

You would think that that with the threat of jobs on the railway being lost to ticket machines and automation, staff would go out of their way to be helpful. As it is, unfortunately a lot of staff are actively obstructive and make people's experience on the railway worse!

I find it's always easier to buy online - it doesn't work for PRIV holders (not me) and also those with RTVs, but otherwise would never use a ticket office. Just too many of them are unknowledgeable, obstinate and impolite

 

[robbeech]

If you look it up on brfares.com the Network Card restrictions are 0430-0959

https://www.brfares.com/!info?type=railcard This page seems to disagree with that, unless it has been spotted as a result of this thread and amended accordingly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

https://www.brfares.com/!info?type=railcard This page seems to disagree with that, unless it has been spotted as a result of this thread and amended accordingly.

Doesn't this just fit around the 28.5 hour railway day? That is, if you have a discounted ticket from the previous day you can use it until 0430, but if you are buying one for the current day you can't buy it for a journey past 0000? Presumably the planners willing to issue the latter is because they can't cope with the idea of of a 28.5 hour day?

 

[Haywain]

Doesn't this just fit around the 28.5 hour railway day? That is, if you have a discounted ticket from the previous day you can use it until 0430, but if you are buying one for the current day you can't buy it for a journey past 0000? Presumably the planners willing to issue the latter is because they can't cope with the idea of of a 28.5 hour day?

That is what I would expect.

 

[island]

The off-peak ticket could have been used as its restriction is "not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30". (Source: www.nationalrail.co.uk/B1)

The Network Railcard could not have been used as its restriction is "travel at or after 10:00 Monday to Friday..." (Source: Terms and conditions at www.network-railcard.co.uk)

As such you ought to have been charged £22.60. You say you were charged £20.75. You have no basis for complaint.

I acknowledge that a website may have been prepared to incorrectly offer a fare that was lower again. Such a ticket would have been valid for use in line with the accompanying itinerary, but that does not make the website correct.

 

[alistairlees]

The off-peak ticket could have been used as its restriction is "not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30". (Source: www.nationalrail.co.uk/B1)

The Network Railcard could not have been used as its restriction is "travel at or after 10:00 Monday to Friday..." (Source: Terms and conditions at www.network-railcard.co.uk)

As such you ought to have been charged £22.60. You say you were charged £20.75. You have no basis for complaint.

I acknowledge that a website may have been prepared to incorrectly offer a fare that was lower again. Such a ticket would have been valid for use in line with the accompanying itinerary, but that does not make the website correct.

I tried several websites, and they all showed a Network Railcard discount on the 04.10 departure. This is because that's what's in the data. The Network Railcard website is essentially wishful thinking.

 

[Haywain]

I tried several websites, and they all showed a Network Railcard discount on the 04.10 departure. This is because that's what's in the data. The Network Railcard website is essentially wishful thinking.

Which shows the different effects of human readable data and machine readable data.

 

[Hophead]

It would clearly be better for the Railcard validity times to be explicit (i.e. valid for travel M-F 10:00 - 00:00 / 04:29 - whichever is correct), rather than the somewhat vague "from 10:00" which gives rise to this confusion.

 

[[.n]]

The Network Railcard could not have been used as its restriction is "travel at or after 10:00 Monday to Friday..." (Source: Terms and conditions at www.network-railcard.co.uk)

Its worth mentioning that there are a few easements for before 10.00 on some routes (e.g. Weymouth where you can use it on the 9.20 to Waterloo)

 

[island]

I tried several websites, and they all showed a Network Railcard discount on the 04.10 departure. This is because that's what's in the data. The Network Railcard website is essentially wishful thinking.

Ultimately, the customer cannot complain if the terms and conditions which they chose to agree to upon purchasing the Network Railcard are enforced.

The fact they are not enforced on certain occasions or certain sales channels is neither here nor there.

 

[alistairlees]

Perhaps the network card discount should not be applied to return tickets where the return portion is used or planned to be used after midnight on Sundays to Thursdays, for consistency?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps the network card discount should not be applied to return tickets where the return portion is used or planned to be used after midnight on Sundays to Thursdays, for consistency?

Absolutely not. The discount needs to persist until the last train of the day, which is usually shortly after midnight.

The situations where this causes a problem are incredibly niche. There are extremely few train departures in the 0300-0430 range in the UK - probably single figures. Making Network Railcards invalid on the rather larger number of last trains that run between 0000 and 0200 or thereabouts would cause far, far more problems.

 

[alistairlees]

Absolutely not. The discount needs to persist until the last train of the day, which is usually shortly after midnight.

The situations where this causes a problem are incredibly niche. There are extremely few train departures in the 0300-0430 range in the UK - probably single figures. Making Network Railcards invalid on the rather larger number of last trains that run between 0000 and 0200 or thereabouts would cause far, far more problems.

I was pointing out the effects of certain data decisions, rather than seriously proposing that.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

https://www.brfares.com/!info?type=railcard This page seems to disagree with that, unless it has been spotted as a result of this thread and amended accordingly.

But If you look at the restrictions for this ticket at
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LST&dest=SSD&grpo=1072&rlc=NEW&tkt=CDR and scroll down to the bottom for the Network Card it says it is 0430-0959. Surely the discount is not meant to stop at midnight?

 

[island]

Brfares.com is not an official website; the official website, linked above by myself, says valid for travel at or after 10:00.

 

[robbeech]

It would clearly be better for the Railcard validity times to be explicit (i.e. valid for travel M-F 10:00 - 00:00 / 04:29 - whichever is correct), rather than the somewhat vague "from 10:00" which gives rise to this confusion.

That would be too easy.

Perhaps the network card discount should not be applied to return tickets where the return portion is used or planned to be used after midnight on Sundays to Thursdays, for consistency?

I'm sure that's what the railway would like.