Refunds for overcrowding?

[Eagle]

The trains parked up at Leamington are LM 172s, with no first class, no catering facilities and mid-carriage doors.

They are obviously excellent on long-distance XC services. :roll:

 

[455driver]

The trains parked up at Leamington are LM 172s, with no first class, no catering facilities and mid-carriage doors.

They are obviously excellent on long-distance XC services. :roll:

But a train is a train!

isnt it?

 

[6Gman]

The trains parked up at Leamington are LM 172s, with no first class, no catering facilities and mid-carriage doors.

They are obviously excellent on long-distance XC services. :roll:

Perhaps they could be used for an Oxford - Leamington service fifteen minutes ahead of the XC.

Just to save our new friend from having to stand for 35 minutes.

 

[orpine]

Nobody forced you to travel on that train, you made the decision yourself.
Neither cattle nor prisoners have such a choice.

Plus jonmorris0844 said the same.
and

but you could choose to travel by alternative means.

Ok fine, so what do I do? I'm in Oxford, I've purchased a return ticket, I'm 45miles from home. Are you going to tell me to take the next train? Because I took the train 1hr later the week before and it was no less packed (hence I sat in first class and got lambasted on this forum for asking if I was allowed to do that). So should I have waited two hours for a train that I could sit on (and of course, there's no guarantee I'd get one then). Will the rail service count that as a suitable delay for the standard compensation package? Yes, that's what I thought too.

Alternative means? Ok, so I can get a refund for the unused portion of the ticket (it's a return and I've already travelled outbound which didn't have this issue). Let's see, that's... £2 refund there, minus the £10 admin fee ... ok so it'll cost me £8 to get the refund for the unused portion.

Sure no-one "forced" me onto the train, but lets not be glib here, I had no choice unless I wanted to wait many hours for a train with a seat or spend who knows how much of whatever alternative (having already spent my money on travel and having no way to get it back).

CrossCountry sells advance fares until shortly before the train departs.

I didn't know that, however two advances cost more than a return for that service.

Yet you conveniently ignore the hassle of having to drive yourself in a car.

Some people enjoy driving. I'm not a driver so I don't know. But I do know they don't have to walk 2 miles to get to/from their car (and that's just the station this end). The car always wins in convenience.

It's a teeny, weeny bit more complicated than you think.

Heh. I know it's complicated and tried to imply I knew that. I know they're not a long-distance class of train, my point was there's rolling stock lying around. I'm sure some of it must be compatible.

Perhaps they could be used for an Oxford - Leamington service fifteen minutes ahead of the XC.

Just to save our new friend from having to stand for 35 minutes.

I realise you're being glib, but why not? The other 20-30 people standing in the same coach as me would have apprecited it. I imagine the 60+ other people standing on that train in the other two carriages + first class vestible would have appreciated it too.
Yes I know, the train companies would have to spend money on staff, I'm sure there are folks who wouldn't mind the work.

 

[bb21]

Some people enjoy driving. I'm not a driver so I don't know. But I do know they don't have to walk 2 miles to get to/from their car (and that's just the station this end). The car always wins in convenience.

Driving means your attention has to be focused on the road and that is not relaxing, regardless of whether someone enjoys the activity. Travelling means one can relax in that respect. Of course if the train is wedged and there is nowhere to sit then it brings its own problems.

 

[maniacmartin]

Of course if the train is wedged and there is nowhere to sit then it brings its own problems.

Driving on the open road is something I find relaxing. Certainly beats a packed Voyager! Driving in cities is not so much fun, but you still have your own music, space, temperature at the level you want etc.

 

[Eagle]

I have had about 7 hours of driving lessons and I already find interurban driving relaxing. :P

 

[Aldaniti]

Careful on Advance fares, TOCs will happily flog 'em to the unsuspecting when cheaper, less restrictive walk up fares are available.

 

[bb21]

Driving on the open road is something I find relaxing.

It is still tiring, because you still have to be fully focused on the road.

 

[Tibbs]

It is still tiring, because you still have to be fully focused on the road.

I find sitting in a car driving much less tiring that standing on a train.

Do you really find standing (and holding yourself upright on a moving train in a crush of people) less tiring than sat in a car driving?

 

[bb21]

I find sitting in a car driving much less tiring that standing on a train.

Do you really find standing (and holding yourself upright on a moving train in a crush of people) less tiring than sat in a car driving?

Read my post again.

 

[Tibbs]

Read my post again.

Which I did - you stated that it brings its own problems, but didn't state whether standing on a train for hours is more or less tiring than driving a car.

That was my question.

 

[6Gman]

Overcrowding is an issue on many services with many operators.

XC is a serial offender.

But my gripe with the OP is that - having had to stand for 35 minutes - he's seeking information re compensation, and suggesting that there's an easy answer.

There isn't.

(Just as an example - where did the train you were using start and finish? Over how much of that journey was the train overcrowded? Was anyone obliged to stand for a lengthy spell - say over an hour - or was there a turnover of standees at each call? Without more information on these questions it would be hard to justify the additional costs of strengthening the service/s.)

 

[bb21]

That was my question.

Obviously I overestimated certain things. I didn't realize that every little thing needs to be explicitly spelt out.

 

[Flamingo]

Obviously I overestimated certain things. I didn't realize that every little thing needs to be explicitly spelt out.

Oh, you must be new here

 

[Rich McLean]

For the record, I have had to stand from Oxford to Sheffield before (which became even more full at New Street, leaving plenty behind) and once on a very busy Summer Friday Night WoE HST, where I found myself standing all the way to Plymouth from Paddington, where it emptied with a healthy load into Cornwall

On both those occasions, I never put in a claim as I had no reservation and didn't make a complaint

 

[Flamingo]

I regularly can never get to sit down the whole way from London to Swansea, can I claim?

 

[island]

I regularly can never get to sit down the whole way from London to Swansea, can I claim?

No. You have a seat in the back cab, you just don't sit in it

 

[CC 72100]

I regularly can never get to sit down the whole way from London to Swansea, can I claim?

Yes but there's probably a good reason for that!

Or you could become lazy at your job and just sit around with the buffet crew all journey, get a seat that way

*Not a serious suggestion

 

[Rich McLean]

No. You have a seat in the back cab, you just don't sit in it

You can't sit in the back cab on a HST while in service (there is the guards van, but its not convenient on down trains)

 

[fowler9]

Going back to the driving thing, I think I'd rather stand on a train than sit in a car to be honest. Unless you have your own sports car cars are a bit crap.

 

[90019]

I regularly can never get to sit down the whole way from London to Swansea, can I claim?

You could sit on the trolley and get pushed through the train.

 

[orpine]

(Just as an example - where did the train you were using start and finish? Over how much of that journey was the train overcrowded? Was anyone obliged to stand for a lengthy spell - say over an hour - or was there a turnover of standees at each call? Without more information on these questions it would be hard to justify the additional costs of strengthening the service/s.)

Fair questions:
As noted, the train was over-crowded from Reading to Coventry minimum. From experience it would have been Birmingham New Street everyone got off, so that's a minimum of 1.5hrs. It was to Manchester, probably from southampton - 4.5hrs. So it was overcrowded for a MINIMUM of 1/3rd of the entire route. Personally I don't think that's acceptable.
- Yes people were oblidged to stand for a length spell, on both of my journeys there were folks who were still standing when I got off - so 90 mins.
- I think that more than justifies it. Consider also:
a) It's hazard for emergencies/accidents (I suspect standing has a higher mortality rate but haven't confirmed).
b) It's impossible to get to the "light buffet".
c) No ticket checks.
d) environmental and ticket revenue impact due to reduced use of service - if there was an alternative many people probably take it to avoid the overcrowding - in fact at least three folks here were glibly suggesting I shouldn't have gotten on in the first place, so they made my point for me.

Again, the reason for the refund suggestion is because I believe I've suffered undue hardship (I don't), it's because how else am I supposed to effect change in the rail companies apart from hitting them where it hurts - their pocket. If everyone could get a refund for overcrowding then suddenly the problem would be much reduced. The companies would find the money to pay the staff to work the trains that are otherwise sitting idle on Sundays.

 

[Flamingo]

You could sit on the trolley and get pushed through the train.

Best suggestion yet!

 

[Drsatan]

Fair questions:
If everyone could get a refund for overcrowding then suddenly the problem would be much reduced. The companies would find the money to pay the staff to work the trains that are otherwise sitting idle on Sundays.

I'm not sure how that would affect XC, given that there's an hourly service on the core network on Sundays (Bournemouth to Manchester and Newcastle to Bristol TM), IIRC. Nonetheless, I believe the main reason TOCs don't provide the same level of service seven days a week is because trains often undergo examinations on Sundays and because Sunday is a voluntary day for drivers.

Unfortunately, a few TOCs (like London Midland) appear to have relied on enough drivers willing to work overtime on Sundays instead of recruiting more, with unfortunate results.

 

[455driver]

If overcrowding is a problem then TOCs will just have staff on the platform preventing too many people getting on.

If you want to travel at the same time as everyone else IE the peak period then you will have to put up with the crowds, every other commuter manages it!

If you dont want the crowds then (as I have said before) travel at quieter times.

 

[maniacmartin]

Regarding standing being a hazard, I recall one report saying if a train is wedged, it can be safer, as people are not able to be thrown around in a crash

 

[A-driver]

Regarding standing being a hazard, I recall one report saying if a train is wedged, it can be safer, as people are not able to be thrown around in a crash

I always find it hard to understand how people can claim that overcrowding is dangerous. People pack themselves onto busy trains. If people genuinely believe the train they are on is overcrowded in a dangerous way then they should simply consider getting off. If staff tried preventing people from getting on the train saying it was too crowded then those on the platform unable to board would start to riot and complain far more!

There was a recent rush hour tweet to FCC complaining that the driver of a train from palmers green-Moorgate was being dangerous as he was 'allowing' more people to get on the 'already dangerously crowded' train. I have no idea what the tweeter believed the driver shod have done...

I know people need to travel and need to get on busy trains to get to work but if people honestly believe something is that dangerous they shouldn't get on. You wouldn't walk through a burning building to get to work because you would believe it to be dangerous.

Plus as far as I know there has never been a single incident on the railway caused by overcrowding. Ok you get people fainting but that's rarely just because of overcrowding, it's normally because they have skipped breakfast etc aswell.

 

[fowler9]

I always find it hard to understand how people can claim that overcrowding is dangerous. People pack themselves onto busy trains. If people genuinely believe the train they are on is overcrowded in a dangerous way then they should simply consider getting off. If staff tried preventing people from getting on the train saying it was too crowded then those on the platform unable to board would start to riot and complain far more!

There was a recent rush hour tweet to FCC complaining that the driver of a train from palmers green-Moorgate was being dangerous as he was 'allowing' more people to get on the 'already dangerously crowded' train. I have no idea what the tweeter believed the driver shod have done...

I know people need to travel and need to get on busy trains to get to work but if people honestly believe something is that dangerous they shouldn't get on. You wouldn't walk through a burning building to get to work because you would believe it to be dangerous.

Plus as far as I know there has never been a single incident on the railway caused by overcrowding. Ok you get people fainting but that's rarely just because of overcrowding, it's normally because they have skipped breakfast etc aswell.

Ha ha. Good point. If I honestly thought a train was dangerously crowded I wouldn't get on. The only danger is in general that if a crowded train was involved in the massively unlikely event of a crash more people would be injured, and that would probably be just because more people were on the train.

 

[Flamingo]

There used to be a passenger travelled daily from Reading to London, her prefered place was sitting in the aisle of First Class, and whenever she was told to move, (either by the TM or Customer Host with the trolley), she would start into a rant in which "Efl & Safety" was liberally thrown in.

One morning (when, as usual there was plenty of room in A & B) she started her rant at me (again). I listened, and when she paused for breath I placatingly said "You are right Ma'am, how may people would need to be removed to make it safe?" When she said 100, I replied "I'm going to ring Control, have us stopped at Slough, and have 100 people removed. Would you like to help me chose the other 99?"